Israel is Coming Apart at the Seams, It Seems

"Moral equivalence" is such a nonsense term. No, they haven't literally done the exact same things. One form of barbarism is rarely identical to any other. But there are also no precedents in history for what they've been doing. It's savagery of a type we haven't seen before.

Is it?
The Dresden bombings, the Tokyo bombings... well, really, most bombing campaigns in general.
I'm not sure what was done here, in this instance, that is so egregiously beyond the pale. Or that would categorize it as uniquely barbaric.

Terror bombing campaigns are also deplorable - but they are of a different character to this.

Targetted assasinations themselves have only become normalised in the recent past. Mass assasination campaigns conducted from the air which have no regard whatever for the number of innocents killed as a consequence are entirely new since last year.

In addition to that, Gaza is gone. As in, wiped out. Off the map. However this ends, there won't be any significant human civilisation there for decades. The Romans are said to have salted the earth in Carthage but it's not true. There hasn't been a war in history where the territory of one side has been razed to this extent.

Of the other crimes, systematic starvation of a population is not new, unfortunately. Nor much of the genocidal fervour. But the targeted destruction of the healthcare system in this way certainly is. The systematic rape in their dungeons probably is. The scale of the attacks on humanitarian organisations is. Certainly the sophisticated propaganda - "working tirelessly for a ceasefire" - is as well.

It's easy to see how far the Overton window has moved. In 1982 in the midst of Israeli crimes in Lebanon that were serious but hardly on the scale we're now witnessing, Ronald Reagan called it a "holocaust" and ordered them to stop, which they did. In 2004, when Israel killed the head of Hamas along with seven others, George W. Bush condemned the action, citing unacceptable loss of life. Now we have Joe Biden talking about an atrocity comparable to 9/11 as representing "a measure of justice". It's sick, and it's recognised as such by people around the world, including in the US. But it's unfortunate that there are still many who approach geopolitics and human rights as they would supporting a sports team.

I'd feel more sympathy if these organizations (Hamas, Hezbollah, even the PLO) had taken the opportunity when it was there to demilitarize and focus on normalizing relations. Which is what every other mideast power has done for the past two decades.
But they never acknowledged Israel's right to exist. They never stopped targeting civilians. They never stopped hurling rockets with little to no reprisal.
The fact that Israel can move forward in normalizing relations with everyone else except them is not a good look for them.

“There hasn't been a war in history where the territory of one side has been razed to this extent.”



Go wiki “Grozny” Tovarishch.

Or if you need something a little closer geographically, temporally and subject wise to the current topic of this thread look at what your boys Putin, Assad and Nasrallah did to Aleppo ‘12-‘16.

100% this.

The best revenge is living well. If the Palestinians had just accepted Gaza and the West Bank decades ago and worked on building those places up, they could have easily surpassed Israel economically with all the support they'd have received from their fellow Arabs.

Instead they chose to fight to the death. How upset am I supposed to be that they eventually got exactly what they wanted, except they're the ones dying?

Man, there's a whole lot of people here who would have been calling September 11 and October 7 justified if they were born on the other side of a border.

Conversation with my Nazi Azeri-Iranian partner about what kind of celebratory dinner we should have for Nasrallah’s death.

(We’ve been in a hotel in the San Juans so couldn’t cook.)

Traditionally Kotlet is served on the anniversary of Soleimanie’s killing (to the point where restaurants in Iran are banned from serving it on that date) but that is because he was pulverized into hamburger.

Now that it appears he died another way dinner plans are changing.


Some people with no connection to the area might just assume that because these terrorists leaders are opposed to Israel and the capitalist west that they are actually supported by the people.

These useful idiots have no idea how much the regular person in these countries doesn’t give a shit and would rather their money be reinvested in their own physical and human capital instead of spent funding terrorism.

It is crazy how many ‘leftists’ assume that just because someone is brown they support terrorism.

Most, in my experience, just want to live their life and have a government that spends its money on its people and not killing Jews.

Name them.

This is what I said back in February:

I don't support any side committing mass murder solely for the sake of a "symbolic" victory.

Pegah is a liar.

We did end up celebrating with kotlet and champagne.

Hamas says its leader in Lebanon was killed in Israeli strike

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-says-one-its-commanders-killed-israeli-strike-southern-lebanon-2024-09-30/

The good news keeps getting better.

Nope, big reach. What happened in Aleppo and Grozny was beyond despicable but even those did not represent the total destruction of the entire territory. Nor were they conducted above the heads of a trapped civilian population.
Also, fuck you. They aren't "my boys", regardless of how many times you try to apply this crude binary to every situation.

Your comment about "everyone other mideast power" normalising relations is factually wrong.
Are you aware of any of the history of the so-called peace-process over the past several decades? This kind of comment is predicated on wholesale acceptance of the ludicrous narrative that Israel just wants to make peace, with no recognition of the fact that it's an expansionist supremacist state that wants to steal land and subject native populations to (at best) apartheid. Of course there are have been issues with the Palestinian approach, to put it mildly, but that really isn't an excuse to support the atrocities we're seeing. You wouldn't accept the reverse argument.

On Nasrallah, remember when he blew up universities, left babies to die in incubators, starved thousands of people, targeted journalists and their families for assassination, killed little girls and ambulance drivers rescuing them, and defended rape and torture? I don't remember either. But he's the terrorist. Killing him along with countless others is super-cool precision bombing.

Hezbollah had agreed to the longstanding Israeli demand to pull back to the Litani River, on the condition of Israel accepting a ceasefire in Gaza.
NBC, quoting an Israeli official: "We have decided to kill Nasrallah after concluding that he will not agree to any solution that isn't tied to ending the war in Gaza."

So Nasrallah was murdered literally because he was doing what everyone is required to do - acting to prevent genocide.

Further, we're at war with Hezbollah, not Lebanon, they say. Yet over the past few days the IDF has murdered Sunni politicians, PLFP and Amal supporters. The IDF are putting in calls to people in some areas warning them not to house those fleeing from others. It's obvious that they're trying to exploit sectarian divides.

Then they bombed the power plant in Yemen, dealing a crushing blow to the population of that country. That's VERY BAD when it happens in Ukraine, apparently. But I'm sure you guys will find excuses for how it's okay when your side does it.

We all know that if you kill the leadership, historically speaking, a guerilla group gives up and stops fighting! Yet Hezbollah is what happened when Israel brutally eliminated the PLO from Lebanon. Hamas is what happened when Israel brutally crushed the Intifada in Gaza & the West Bank. If the IDF ever did achieve the goal of eliminating Hezbollah, something else will take its place. Oppression breeds resistance.

And this is currently the conversation going on in the Israeli media.



So, yeah. This.

Following up on that:

'Hamas leader' in Lebanon killed by Israel was UN employee, UNWRA confirms
The UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNWRA) said Fateh Al Sharif had been under investigation and on "administrative leave" since March.

https://news.sky.com/story/hamas-le...srael-was-un-employee-unwra-confirms-13225258

Note this is Hamas saying this is their leader, and UN saying he was a UN employee.

So a UN employee was coordinating attacks against Israel from Lebanon.

You can't claim you're acting to prevent genocide when your charter explicitly calls for genocide.
And despite what you said, I'm more than a little familiar with the issues over there. Saudi Arabia officially recognized Israel. As did Egypt, Jordan, UAE, abs several others. Hamas consisered this a betrayal.
I've said before and I'll say again: There is stupidity on both sides. A deal could easily be reached, but the most extreme end on both sides always spike it.
I will say this, though: There is international sympathy for the Palestinians. If they were to universally condemn terrorism, dismantle Hamas, and demonstrate they can create a functional democratic government, international pressure on Israel to accept them would be immense.
Netanyahu was on his last legs before Oct. 7th. Now he's stronger than ever, and opposition to a two-state solution is at its lowest point in decades.
And so Hamas, Hezbollah and the rest think the best solution is to double and triple down on their "Israel must be annihilated" rhetoric? When the whole country basically exists because for centuries the Jews were subject to inquisitions and holocausts?
There are no more Nazis for Jews to go after. The biggest representation of centuries of antisemitism is the Arab push against them. Terrorist attacks. Holocaust denials. Calls for the extermination of the Jewish state. And you think a group that's only a little bit bigger than what Hitler wiped out won't take out all that aggression on the people saying the same shit the Nazis did?
It's not right, but if we're going to truly understand how to resolve this situation, we have to keep in mind the way we got here.
Israel has much to answer for, yes. But step 1 HAS to be the Palestinians backing off from terrorism and genocidal rhetoric.

Oh, and here's that nice Hamas terrorist receiving an award from the UN for his role in overseeing the education of Palestinian children.

I'm sure that was a factually accurate and unbiased portrayal of reality.

Of course you can. They're two independent things, even allowing for the nonsense that wanting an end to the state of Israel is a call for genocide. (Nasrallah had said that he wants a single democratic state for Jews, Christians and Muslims.)

Saudi Arabia didn't. Trying to get them to do is part of the diplomatic conversation at the moment, but they say they won't do so without a settlement for Palestine.
Neither did Yemen, Oman, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Iran or Libya. UAE, Egypt and Jordan are the only ones who did in the region. So the claim that they all did is totally false.

Yeah, like the PLO did in the 1990s. How did that go? How's it going in the West Bank now? Capitulation and collaboration in the hope that the people who want to steal your land will treat you well. Ludicrous.

There is no step one for ending a genocide than the genocider stopping, either voluntarily or by being compelled. Trying to put the responsibility back on the victim is outrageous.

And Hitler said that he had no more territorial demands in Europe if the West just allowed him to eat this last little bit of Czechoslovokia.

Oh, and this is from the Open Letter on the Goals of Hezbollah, that announced the groups political ideology:

If you, Christians, cannot tolerate that Muslims share with you certain domains of government, Allah has also made it intolerable for Muslims to participate in an unjust regime, unjust for you and for us, in a regime which is not predicated upon the prescriptions (ahkam) of religion and upon the basis of the Law (the Shari’a) as laid down by Muhammad, the Seal of the Prophets

Every time you peel back the diplomatic statements of a Islamic fundamentalist terrorist group, you find out they do actually want to spread Islam by force throughout the world.

Germany's new citizenship law decreases the time for citizenship from 8 to 5 years - but bans anyone who posts 'from the river to the sea' from obtaining citizenship.
https://www.jpost.com/international/article-822454

Individuals who posted ‘From the River to the Sea’ on social media will be denied German citizenship, according to stipulations in the new citizenship law, as cited by German channel NDR (North German Radio and Television) and the Federal Ministry of the Interior this week.

People who are employed in Germany can work to obtain citizenship after five years, compared to the eight years previously required in the law. While the law was passed on June 27 of this year, the requirements have been tightened, especially regarding “Racism, antisemitism, or any other form of misanthropy rule out naturalization,” according to the German Federal Ministry of the Interior.

One of the requirements for citizenship, clause 10.1.1.1.3.1, concerns “Germany’s special historical responsibility for the National Socialist injustice and its consequences, especially for the protection of Jewish life.”

Like I said, Israel isn't blameless. They need to pull back from Gaza, pull their settlements from the west bank, etc.
But as soon as their is any hiccup in the diplomatic process, the general reaction from Hamas is terrorism.
I may have stretched it a bit to include Saudi Arabia, but the fact that they are even that upended open to it is remarkable.
I'm not going to accept that calling for the elimination of the Israeli state is not a call for genocide. It's a lot more arguable than saying the war in Gaza is genocidal.
When it came to things like the Camp David accord, who sank it? Hardliners on both sides. Netanyahu among them. It was an Israeli MAGA equivalent that killed Rabin.
The point is, no true progress can be made until we get rid of people like that. That's why Oct. 7th was such a bad idea. If there's no Oct. 7th, Netanyahu is a footnote by this point. Gaza would not be a warzone.
We can quibble over who should blink first on this, but agreeing not to commit terrorism or support genocide, I think, ought be an easy thing to do.

You're very fond of these kind of weasel words. The diplomatic process has been nothing but "hiccups". It's almost thirty years since there was any serious engagement from the Israeli side, and even then the proposals were for "less than a state" for Palestine, that the PA would simply act as Israels cop as they continued as they always had. And then they killed the guy who offered it.
It's hard to avoid the conclusion that the peace process was only ever a sham intended to placate opposition. Just like the ceasefire talks now.

Of course terrorism is not the answer, but it's an explicable result of that. And the Israeli establishment was happy about it, because they are not interested in a peaceful compromise, they are interested in dominance and expansion. That's why they were propping Hamas up for years.

You didn't stretch it. You got it completely wrong. You said all of them, when it's three out of ten (or more depending how you count).
What's more, even those states who have normalised with Israel (and SA who might consider it) did so only because they're US-backed dictatorships, acting against the will of their peoples.

This is a propaganda crutch used by those who demand that Palestinians endorse their own subjugation. Your acceptance is not required.
Recognition ought to be an end goal of a political process. Not a pre-requisite.
Otherwise where are the alarmed demands for recognition of Palestine? Or insistence that anyone recognise that state's right to exist?

That depends on who you ask and what you consider "hardline".

Yes, it should. But talking about "blinking first" in the context of an overall settlement is not what you were talking about. You sought to justify ongoing Israeli atrocities against civilians by blaming historical political decisions.

The IDF is beginning a special military operation. Sorry, I mean limited ground operation.

Hope it goes well for them.

It's one step at a time. End the violence against the Israelis, that is the most immediate need. I mean, you don't work on painting your kitchen if the whole house is on fire. You put out the fire, and then set to work remodeling the kitchen.

Morale among Shias in Lebanon plummets as people openly begin to blame Iran for their fate:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/09/30/iran-hezbollah-supporters-lebanon-israel-attacks/

Netanyahu addresses Iran and says that Israel has no problem with the Iranian people, but the Iranian leadership is betraying them:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveb...s-iran-will-be-free-sooner-than-people-think/

Netanyahu is an asshole of course but on this one he isn't wrong - Iran would be far better off if they threw off the Ayatollah and his clerics.

Yeah, Netanyahu "addressed Iran" in a message in English, with English subtitles.

He desperately wants to expand this war.

Then maybe his enemies should stop giving him convenient excuses to do so