Israel is Coming Apart at the Seams, It Seems

Oh, I think we all know there are going to be repercussions from this for a considerable period of time. And Israel hasn't had it's last rocket shot at it or mass shooting inspired by Hamas (had one in Tel Aviv just two days ago).

The question is the scope and capability of those actions.

It's much harder to win a war on terror when the instigators are on your very doorstep.

But I tend to recall many people here saying there was no way to win a war on terror period - yet I don't recall any Muslim terrorist attacks in the US for a decade.

You can say the expenditure and death wasn't worth it, and that's certainly a valid take, but you can't argue that the Muslim terrorists attacking the US weren't degraded.

We'll see if this makes what Israel faces worse or better. My bet is the later, because it's going to take the Palestinians a couple of decades to pick up the pieces.

And those evil Israeli terrorists just rescued a sex slave in Gaza - who had been taken by force in Iraq.

Yazidi woman kidnapped by ISIS in Iraq rescued from Gaza by Israel
Foreign Ministry says Fawzia Amin Sido was taken captive at 11 and sold to terror group supporter in Gaza, where she was held for 10 years before being reunited with her family

According to various reports, Fawzia was taken from her home in Iraq to Syria after she was kidnapped, where she was purchased by a Palestinian ISIS supporter who brought her to Gaza. She was forced to bear his children, and he later returned to Syria, where he was reportedly killed in an attack. However, the terrorist’s family continued to hold the woman hostage until her recent release.

https://www.ynetnews.com/article/sjulcgh00

You're the same guy that was shedding crocodile tears over "innocent civilians" in Gaza and Lebanon just a few days ago, right? Because you're not just a tiresome antisemite, and the suffering of any innocent civilian upsets you so deeply?

No, I agree. The Hamas atrocities were real enough without inventing things that didn't happen. Instances of sexual violence is one thing, for which there is some limited evidence. Widespread "mass rape" employed as a strategy is another, for which there is not. The effort to conflate the two is just another means of dehumanising Palestinians to justify their slaughter.

Honestly, both sides have been dehumanizing each other for so long its endemic to their culture.
Oct. 7th seems to have cranked everything up to 11. Whether you think the Israeli’s are justified or not, they see an entire ethnic group that is on video cheering over bodies of their dead women paraded through the streets. On the other side, Palestinians see images of dead children from Israeli bombings.
They both want each other dead now. Some might give lip service to not being at war with "the people" or somesuch, but honestly they all hate each other so much that any protestations of inhumane acts will fall on deaf ears on both sides.

There's one thing that the repercussions of 10/7 will ensure - Palestine isn't going to have a state for another generation, at least.

And speaking of which:

UN Envoy for Sexual Violence Primilla Patten:
Across various locations, she said, the team found “that several fully naked or partially naked bodies from the waist down were recovered – mostly women – with hands tied and shot multiple times, often in the head.”
...
At the Nova music festival and its surroundings, Patten said, “there are reasonable grounds to believe that multiple incidents of sexual violence took place with victims being subjected to rape and/or gang rape and then killed or killed while being raped.”

https://apnews.com/article/israel-p...7-hamas-gaza-fe1a35767a63666fe4dc1c97e397177e

Meanwhile, Ricky is over there trying to do to the calculus of how many dead raped women constitute a 'mass.' Big damn hero, that one.

The last time this came up, you resorted to inventing quotes from Patten to justify yourself. Heroic indeed.

This discusses Patten's report, including the issues with its methodology, reliance on discredited and biased sources and highlights that despite this, its conclusions are still not remotely what you and others like to imply. No conclusions that sexual violence was of a systematic character. No attribution to any specific armed groups. Confirmation that there were deliberate efforts to circulate false stories.

There remain no identified victims, no credible witnesses and no specific evidence.

You're back on the "there's no testimony from the decapitated rape victims themselves, ergo it never happened" bandwagon, huh? Classy.

No. Read the piece linked to. Accusations require evidence, even if they're accusations against bad people.

I'll give this to the Zionists. They know exactly which buttons to push to get overwrought liberals on their side. This is the logical end result of the "believe all women" shit that was so prevalent. You guys barely recognise the concept of a false accusation.

Wow.

She was 11.

The article doesn't say what happened to the family that held her for a decade, but I sincerely hope they're all dead, and that they died in agony. I hope the home where she was imprisoned for so long has been bombed into dust. I hope the entire city block has been leveled.

Aziz Salha, photographed preparator of Ramallah lynching, killed in IAF strike in Gaza - report

Aziz Salha, one of the perpetrators of the Ramallah lynching in 2000, was killed in an IAF strike in central Gaza, the IDF reported on Thursday.

Salha became famous for waving his hands out the window that were covered in the blood of two IDF reserve soldiers that he and other perpetrators of the lynching had murdered.

Nearly 24 years ago, IDF reservists Vadim Norzhich and Yosef Avrahami were lynched by a Palestinian mob while detained at the el-Bireh police station in Ramallah after accidentally entering the city controlled by the Palestinian Authority.



https://m.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-823056

24 years too late, but still wonderful news.

FTFY.

No, I didn't, your lies about what I said aren't evidence. They are just your delusions.

Yet the AP is quoting her once again saying something else. I guess the AP is lying now too.

You believe everything the terrorists say, every time. We all watched you lose your shit about the hospital that the PIJ hit with a rocket they fired. You swore up and down it had to be Israel. Let me guess, you still have that delusion.

And your source? Mondoweiss - who has a pop up page saying its 'Journalism for a Free Palestine.' Huh. Wonder if they could be biased AT ALL? LOL.

I think I'll go with the quotes from the actual envoy from the UN on sexual violence in question by the Associated Press, instead of your 'journalism.' What a fucking joke.

ok, you know it is bullshit when UA and I agree.

HAHAHAHA! this aged like a head of lettuce.

LOL. It's right here. Post #2709
There were two lies. Firstly that her statements about October 7th in general were about mass rapes. Secondly that she had said "that the world needs to apologize to Israel for not believing the atrocities committed against it by Hamas". You invented that one whole cloth.

These claims were made in the context of you whining about my not responding to your posts. Yet of course once I pointed these things out, you slithered away. Par for the course for someone who has directly and specifically defended the use of brutality against prisoners, and asserted that the people undergoing a genocide deserve everything that they get.

No, I didn't say that AP were lying, although they are being extraordinarily selective in order to cater to fanatics like you.

I questioned the methodology used to arrive at the statements made and I included an extremely well sourced article which goes into detail about this. Which of course, you choose not to address because you don't like the editorial line. Back to quoting The Atlantic for you, run by a literal concentration camp guard.

Lastly, your newfound respect for UN reportage might be welcome if you didn't happen to be exclusive to the things that you want to hear. The mountainous evidence for Israeli war crimes compiled by the UN just gets thrown on the pile with "Muslim terrorist propaganda".

Huh. Yet again, this shit is only okay when "we" do it.

Here's the article. Oil is up 10% now since the Iranian strikes. That's even before a US-Israeli retaliation and the further spiral that's likely to entail.

Generally speaking, yes. Or do you not understand the concept of "allies"?

Ah yes, here's my 'lie.' Here's the whole story that I quoted:


United Nations envoy Pramila Patten concluded her eight-day visit to Israel on Monday after receiving a first-hand account of the sexual violence committed by Hamas during the terrorist group’s bloody cross-border attack on Oct. 7.

The special representative of the U.N. secretary-general on sexual violence in conflict said that she hasn’t been able to sleep for a week after watching the IDF’s 47-minute video of the Hamas atrocities at the Foreign Ministry in Jerusalem, titled “Bearing Witness to the October 7th Massacre.”

“Only after I saw the video did I understand things that I didn’t understand before in terms of the magnitude of the disaster that happened,” the Mauritian barrister was quoted by Ynet as saying.

Gilad Erdan, Israel’s U.N. ambassador, accompanied Patten on parts of the trip. Ten experts in the fields of law and medicine also accompanied her. Most of them will stay in Israel for another week to continue to collect evidence.

“Patten’s visit was especially important to us so that there would be international recognition of the suffering and the horrible sexual crimes committed against Israeli women and girls on Oct. 7 by the monsters of Hamas, and also so that the world will understand who we are fighting against. The disgrace of the disregard and indifference of the U.N. and its women’s organization cannot continue,” said Erdan.

Patten also met with doctors and psychiatrists from the Health Ministry, professionals from the Social Affairs Ministry in the field of sexual victims, Israeli President Isaac Herzog and his wife, First Lady Michal Herzog, and representatives of civil society organizations.

She also toured Be’eri, a kibbutz near the Gaza border where at least 130 people were murdered during the Hamas attack and others kidnapped. During the tour, she was accompanied by Or Yelin, a survivor of the massacre, and Yossi Landau, the head of Zaka in the Southern Region.

During the visit, Patten viewed images of and heard testimonies regarding the sexual abuse and mutilation that occurred there.

Hamas terrorists committed acts of rape, including gang rape, and other acts of sexual violence against both men and women during the Oct. 7 attacks. According to freed hostages’ testimonies, rapes and other sexual abuse are ongoing against hostages held by the terror group in Gaza.

“I saw things here that I have not seen anywhere in the world. The world outside cannot understand the magnitude of the event. I myself also internalized the magnitude of the event just by being here myself,” said Patten.

“Only when I am here do I understand the magnitude of the pain, the insult and the anger of Israel regarding how the world did not sufficiently understand and treat the atrocities that happened to you,” she added.

Following the visit, the official will present her findings to the U.N. secretary-general for inclusion in the United Nations’ annual report on sexual violence.
https://www.jns.org/un-envoy-in-israel-world-cant-understand-magnitude-of-oct-7/

And then more recent comments:
UN Envoy for Sexual Violence Primilla Patten:
Across various locations, she said, the team found “that several fully naked or partially naked bodies from the waist down were recovered – mostly women – with hands tied and shot multiple times, often in the head.”
...
At the Nova music festival and its surroundings, Patten said, “there are reasonable grounds to believe that multiple incidents of sexual violence took place with victims being subjected to rape and/or gang rape and then killed or killed while being raped.”
https://apnews.com/article/israel-p...7-hamas-gaza-fe1a35767a63666fe4dc1c97e397177e

You just are invested in it not being true.

Because you know there is no possible justification for it, and being a cheerleader for Hamas makes you a shit human being.

You say Ukrainians being killed by the tens of thousands isn't a genocide, being the victims of a war started by Russia, but you've literally said multiple times now that Gaza is the worst crime in modern history, saying ridiculous things like 'they are starving more quickly than anyone and now that no location has ever been as devastated as Gaza - when Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and the Tokyo firebombings exist.

Oh, so her saying that there's reason to believe in mass rape is 'selective.' Gotcha.

It's a common conceit in critical thinking to look at biased sources having to admit their own issues, such as the UN envoy's disgust at Hamas gang rape atrocities when she had previously denied there were any truth to that at all.

Same reason I focus on Trump's cabinet saying he's a dictator. When people admit they were mistaken, it has more credence than zealots screaming over and over again.

Yes, and no where does it contain the statement that you attributed to Patten. That means you fabricated it. Cope harder.

And once again, this is ridiculous. Utterly shameless - you're just making this up.

She didn't say that there was reason to believe in mass rape. The quotes you posted don't amount to her saying so, you aren't entitled to draw that conclusion from them just because it suits you. And as per the Mondoweiss piece when specifically asked, she explicitly said that she hadn't made that finding.

Because normally you find multiple women tied to structures naked from the waste down with genital injuries and then murdered in all the best festivals.

On Road 232 — the road to leave the festival — “credible information based on witness accounts describe an incident of the rape of two women by armed elements,” Patten said. Other reported rapes and gang rapes couldn’t be verified and require investigation.

“Along this road, several bodies were found with genital injuries, along with injuries to other body parts,” she said. “Discernible patterns of genital mutilation could not be verified at this time but warrant future investigation.”


She said “the mission team also found a pattern of bound naked or partially naked bodies from the waist down, in some cases tied to structures including trees and poles, along Road 232.”

Rick Deckerd - genocide denier, rape apologist.

Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei has declared the Oct. 7 attack which killed over 1,200 Israelis to be "legitimate," in his first public sermon in five years delivered in Persian and translated by the BBC monitoring service.

In his public address on Friday morning, Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei described the Oct. 7 assault as the "minimum punishment" Israel deserved for what he called its "astonishing crimes." He further condemned Israel as a "vampire" regime and referred to its primary ally, the United States, as a "rabid dog."

AP newswire has cited Iran television sources as reporting he said the recent missile attacks were a "shining" example of how to fight Israel and how Tuesday's barrage was based on international law, the country's law and Islamic beliefs.

https://www.newsweek.com/israel-updates-escalation-israel-iran-world-oil-price-surge-1963680

Something to keep in mind when certain people whine about only one type of civilian casualties in the near future.

Rick, serious question here: why are you so resistant to acknowledging the sexual crimes Hamas committed? That doesn't invalidate criticism of Israel's response. But your adamant denial of any widespread wrongdoing does undercut that criticism.

No, it doesn't - and the fact that you make an argument connecting the two is entirely the point here. Israel's crimes against Palestinians are heinous totally irrespective of anything Hamas did or didn't do. Yet atrocity propaganda about October 7th is being used to justify those crimes and so must be challenged.

I don't dispute that there were crimes committed by Hamas. I have disputed the nature of those crimes. You should read it again.

And while you're at it, since rape appears to be an especially emotive subject that people are unwilling to speak rationally about, consider again the "40 beheaded babies" lie and the "burned babies" lie. These are still being repeated regularly as well, including by Netanyahu at the UN and by Joe Biden (who claims to have seen pictures). This despite them being absolutely, verifiably and objectively false - since only one infant was murdered on October 7th. Why do you think they do that?

I think Netanyahu has a vested interest in exaggerating those crimes. I think Biden is old and out of touch. I dont see Harris parroting those claims, for instance.
One dead baby is pretty fucking barbaric. There's no need to exaggerate on that.
I've said before and I'll say it again: Evil must be opposed. Oct. 7th was evil. Knomeini is evil for endorsing it. Netanyahu is evil for capitalizing on it. It's harder for me to necessarily blame the flunkies because, like I said earlier, both sides have been fed a lifelong stream of atrocities the other side committed, real and imaginary. But, people like Netanyahu ought to know better.

False.

Hamas, the de facto government of Gaza, declared war on Israel with the October 7th attack. What you call "Israel's crimes" are more accurately Israel fighting a war against an enemy has shown repeatedly that it has no respect for international law, basic human rights, or the generally accepted rules of war. When you're waging a war it makes a huge difference if you're fighting a civilized enemy or a gang of amoral psychopaths. Context fucking matters.

Didn't you recently start a thread ridiculing international law? Do you think it should be followed or not?

I think it's nice when both sides agree to follow certain rules of conduct like civilized gentlemen having a polite afternoon duel, but when one side has zero regard for any rules, it's asinine to expect the other side to continue following them.

Fighting dirty during a boxing match: bad

Fighting dirty when a gang of hobos are trying to murder you: perfectly fine