Reactionary Radical Eliminationists vs. Trans

That's the other thing, isn't it? For groups who insist on removing "gender ideology" they sure as shit reinforce their own ideas of what gender is and isn't, despite the fact that it is entirely subjective.

To be clear, I'd not advocate for putting intact trans women in a women's prison. Or putting a trans man with a vagina in a men's prison. That is just begging for trouble.
But makeup? Underwear? Come on. That's a ridiculous thing to fight about.

Why is it ridiculous? Stop and think about it, and ask yourself why makeup and underwear might be important, psychologically speaking, for someone experiencing body dysphoria, and whether or not you'd deny someone with severe depression or anxiety safe items that might ameliorate their condition? Really think about it.

Let me give you a little insight, and I mean this with no snark at all: I am a trans woman who cannot transition in public, I live in a deeply hostile area. So I wear women's undergarments to help me deal with the body dysphoria. It's not a 100% solution at all, only transitioning could help there, but it does keep me from doing things to myself from the severe depression I experience. It's not a game, I promise you. It's not a lark or a play. It is real.

Well, a couple things

First, you and the original article you linked to had to embellish what was actually happening to artificially invoke sympathy and give weight to being able to compare it to actual atrocities that have been associated with shaving heads in the past, which is pretty fucking greasy

Secondly it sounds like the person here in question, Michelle Ward, really regrets the life choices they have made and don't like what they are being subjected to in prison. My advice to her would be to not do something that would land you in prison to begin with. I have a tough time feeling sorry for criminals in jail regardless of gender or what they identify as especially if the person in question is a convicted pedophile, serving two life sentences for sexually assaulting two 10 year old girls, like Michelle Ward is

I actually meant it's ridiculous to fight against inmates having that stuff.

I didn't embellish anything, and the fact that you think it's to invoke sympathy says a lot about what you think about all of this. You have glossed over the fact they were coerced and their medical diagnoses dismissed.

So I guess I just have to wonder why I should give a single fuck about your opinions on the subject, since you're more than willing to go right along with this like Uncle Albert? In fact, I'll just consider you on that level going forward and treat you accordingly, not that it matters for you.

Ah, my mistake. I thought you were against them having it. I must have read your post wrong.

Yes you did, you linked to an article that clearly said "shaved heads" when it wasn't and then made a post to educate us on how "head shaving has been used as an abuse and humiliation tactic for generations"

I thought I was being nice using embellish tbh, I could have said outright lied and purposefully misled

I'm not the one defending a pedophile, but whatevs

You know, I really feel like someone like that is not someone anyone should use as an example to garner sympathy.
My point about the silliness of restricting prison commissary owns based on gender still stands, though.
But the last thing the trans movement needs is to amplify the plight of a person who is every negative stereotype people have about trans women.

She's already being amplified by right wingers as an example, and the truth is still the truth, even if the person who is being abused was also abusive.

She's in prison, she is now serving her sentence, but there are basic human rights standards that should be met, and that includes mental, physical, and emotional concerns. There is a reasonable line of punishment, and denying someone their humanity goes over that line. Too many people, especially Americans, really love this notion of tough justice to the point where anyone in prison deserves everything coming to them. I'm a prison abolitionist, so I have my own opinions on the state of things in US prisons, but deny someone their humanity is an issue all on its own, and exclusive of this woman in particular, the other trans women involved are also being denied these things. It's never going to be just one person, this system will crush them all and dehumanize them all, regardless of what they've done. That is worth noting, in my opinion.

Also keep in mind that the US is a carceral state with the largest prison population in the world, and people like Trump are trying to make it illegal to be transgender in public, seen as a sexual act of perversion just to exist. What do you think that mindset will contribute to trans people's lives in the future?

So a new poster joins a forum and makes an introduction post. He starts a conversation with an old poster who replies to the thread. The old guy has obviously had a few. He says to the man:

"You see that post about Star Wars over there? Wrote it myself, hand crafted each word, and it's the best post in town! But do they call me "The Star Wars Fan"? No! And you see that jeep over there? I rebuilt that, took me two months, through rain, sleet and scoarching weather, but do they call me "The jeep mechanic"? No! And you see that history essay over there, I wrote that, most well though out argument ever on the forum! But do they call me "The graduate?" No!"

The old poster is clearly frustrated at this point.

"but you make just one thousand posts being an obnoxious cunt..."

Getting a haircut and not being allowed to wear a bra is now taking away someone's humanity? Or somehow contrary to human rights? In prison of all places?

JFC what world do you live in. Absolutely mental

The truth is still the truth, but who's saying it matters.
Almost nobody is chomping at the bit to defend the civil rights of a pedophile who assaulted multiple prepubescent girls. Fair, not fair, that's how it is.
Now, you show me someone who, for instance, stole a car or committed wire fraud or something and I'm more likely to be sympathetic to their plight.
Be that as it may: The immediate revocation of their medications is indefensible. Despite @Uncle Albert 's imbecilic post, there's a huge gulf between prescribed medications and illegal substances. And while I tend to agree with @Ten Lubak that hair, makeup, etc isn't a huge issue in general, I also think it's stupid to allow it for some people and not others based strictly on what's in their pants.
But surely, surely there are better examples for this issue than the pedophile rapist.

There are, and what she did was horrifying, but even if she had murdered someone, basic human rights should be a given when one is in prison, and that includes medical reasoning like body dysphoria and such. See, people like UA and Lubak want you to see these trans women as silly, conceited, catered to over whims that aren't real. The goal is to keep you off balance, never really thinking of these people as deserving basic humanity.

Again, remember, this isn't just her, she is being used to keep you from looking further into it because of the subject matter, her terrible transgressions, but this is also about the other trans women who are being denied basic human rights because of bigotry. This won't just happen to her, it is happening to all of them in Florida, and quite possibly many other state and federal prisons as Donald Trump and his ghoulish fascists take office.

Put it this way: if you were trans, and your existence was seen as sexual perversion, and they arrested you at home because you were a risk to your child (for being trans), and you ended up in a prison, you would hope people on the outside would understand what is going on and fight to stop it, not go along with the fascists as they find yet one more reason why those trans people are so troublesome and deserve what they get.

"You build a thousand bridges but suck one cock? Guess what. You're not known as a bridge builder. You're known as a cocksucker." ~Asmongold

A. "Intact" isn't everything
B. HRT of any significant duration takes care of anything that might be attempted with "intact" genitalia and significantly reduces if not eliminates the desire to try.
C. In terms of rapist, the right wing has long lusted after the idea of "chemical castration" because of just that reality - such "castration" being exactly what trans women WANT.
D. Statistically cis women in female prison suffer sexual assault from fellow cis inmates, or guards, or both, at a vastly higher rate than from trans prisoners who very rarely commit such.
E. This doesn't apply to persons who've never shown any interest in transitioning until after conviction...and yet you could find out how serious they are buy offering to remove their nuts for free and see how their sexual desires go.
F. It isn't just to force trans women into male prisons, nor to isolate them if there's only one. A separate jail that could accommodate up to...I dunno, 50? ...would be reasonable but red states don't want to be reasonable.

And about the "other stuff" - that's how you know they aren't thinking about anyone's safety - they are using captive pawns to make a statement.

The message here is not FOR the prisoners - it's for the rest of us. It's a message that says "your identities are not legitimate and they will not be recognized in Florida law in ANY way"

And yes, it reinforces gender tropes and stereotypes, but they WANT those tropes....they NEED those tropes. It's part of how they structure the hierarchy. Messing with gender messes with that power structure. It must not be permitted, even among the most marginalized.


ETA: In the same way that the current "sports" bill in Congress, which passed the House today, is not actually about sports, these policies are not at all about what the prisoner does or doesn't deserve. They're about establishing the precedent IN LAW that trans women are, in fact, men - from that precedent flows all other evils they intend to visit upon us.

This is why we object even when the person in question is a "bad apple"

Remember the lawsuits trans women prisoners KEEP winning when it comes to receiving appropriate transition care including surgery? They all flow from a SCOTUS precedent that denying medically recommended care is cruel and unusual punishment, same as if they had denied, say, a knee replacement.

If the reactionaries can re-set the precedent, they can do anything they like to us - criminal or not.

One which includes an aspect of human experience which yours hasn't included.

You might as well be insisting to a mother that no, in point of fact, no one believes that Labor is painful. You lack standing.

Ward's crime aside, are you under the childishly naive impression that TPTB don't get to define what is a criminal act and what gets you incarcerated?

Look up the "crime" of "walking while trans"

If those in power want you in prison, you'll BE in prison - or dead.

Not to mention just because you're in prison, that doesn't mean you've actually committed a crime, just that you didn't have the means to fight your case. There's ample evidence of cops, DAs, etc. framing people or hiding exculpatory evidence.

The Alec Baldwin case is a good example.

That is an extremely well- thought-out and cogent reply. I've never considered the chemical castration aspect of it.
It makes me wonder how similar chemical castration is to hormone therapy.

I’m always amused by how other people think of my thoughts and motivations for the things I say or do (in this case, type). I don’t think I’ve ever been presumed to think I’m smarter than anyone.

Because it's prison, not a fucking country club. You are not there to enjoy your personal luxuries, no matter what special conditions you imagine you can demand.

So...should they eliminate bras, makeup, etc from the women's prison too? The point of my post is that these items shouldn't be restricted based on gender.
Try to keep up.

He's a misogynist. The answer is yes. It's just not a good look to say it aloud, so you'll get dodges and/or crickets.

Never mind that if you go out of your way to dehumanize prisoners, how do you expect them to reintegrate into society?

Punishment based prison is a failure.
It doesn't deter.
It doesn't prevent recidivism.
It doesn't reform.
It just makes humans into factory chickens.
And whenever anyone suggests trying something else, a meathead like you screams "oh! Hug therapy! Hug therapy!!".
Funny how you types who blubber and sniffle about taxes think prison and war are worth every penny.

Bras yes, makeup no.

The Trash Heap has spoken.

Get fucked, you lying dickbag.

Mistaking cosmetics for being "humanized" would be one huge bit of faulty thinking to be corrected.

I suppose you would prefer hug therapy.

Tell you what. Let them sleep in your house and you can coddle them as much as you like.