[Volpone]

"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep, voting on what to have for dinner."

Oregon had a special election on two measures: With a $700 million defecit, should we tax people with incomes over $125,000 and corporations--retroactive a year?

It passed easily. Look for unemployment to go up in a state with the 10th highest unemployment.

[Volpone]

...and here's an article:

Oregon Says Yes to Taxing Wealthy, Businesses
Updated January 27, 2010
AP

PORTLAND, Ore. -- Oregon has set aside its history of shooting down tax increases on statewide ballots, with voters endorsing higher taxes on businesses and the rich amid a brutal economic slump.

Democrats in the Oregon Legislature made it as easy as they could for the voters to raise taxes on somebody else, and the electorate responded Tuesday by approving Measures 66 and 67.

The increases approved Tuesday will hit people with taxable income upward of $125,000 -- estimated at fewer than 3 percent of filers. Many businesses who had been paying an annual $10 minimum will see that rise to at least $150.

With 91 percent of the vote counted, the vote was 54-46 on Measure 66 and 53-47 on Measure 67.

Oregon voters have consistently rebuffed legislative attempts to take more in tax revenue -- such as a cigarette tax to pay for health insurance for children three years ago, two previous income tax measures that would have hit most Oregonians and nine sales tax measures over the decades.

A Democratic legislative leader, Senate President Peter Courtney, said he was, just in case, preparing a statement acknowledging defeat just before the results were reported Tuesday.

"This is a tax vote?" he exclaimed later when the victory was evident. "This is indescribable ... It's Oregon being Oregon."

The vote affirms the two-year budget the Legislature controlled by Democrats adopted last year, and spares it $727 million worth of budget cutting during a four-week session that begins Monday.

Courtney's counterpart in the House, Speaker Dave Hunt, says the session will focus on legislation to spur job creation and to help people hurt by the slump that has boosted the unemployment rate to 11 percent and driven record numbers of people to seek aid such as food stamps.

Oregon's Sherwood Forest, take-from-the-rich strategy might appeal to legislators in other states struggling to bandage their budgets, said Portland pollster Tim Hibbitts.

"The nature of the measure they crafted was very smart political strategy," he said.

"If you're going to take this to a red state, it's going to be a lot more difficult," he said. "Other blue states that are feeling the pressure may say, 'Maybe we could craft a similar measure and win with that."'

Business leaders and Republicans were glum. Hibbitts' polls suggested a closer vote, and for much of the voting period, liberal Multnomah County was slow to mail in and drop off ballots, raising the hopes of the tax opponents.

It was a victory for public employee unions who were the spearhead of the campaign for the taxes and raised enough money to outspend the opponents.

A Common Cause analysis put their fundraising advantage to date at $6.85 million to $4.55 million in one of the state's most expensive campaigns.

"The bottom line is the unions bought the election," said State Republican Chairman Bob Tiernan. "It's going to be a sadder day as more businesses leave the state and more don't want to come here."

[Paladin]

It was a victory for public employee unions who were the spearhead of the campaign for the taxes and raised enough money to outspend the opponents.

Just like in California, the state workers are in control.

They don't like competition. They don't want to change. They won't give up anything. That's for all you little people in the private sector.

They'll make sure their interests are covered, even if it drives the rest of the state into the ground.

Well, I doubt the retroactive tax increase is going to fly. We have a Constitution that protects against ex post facto laws. And, since we still have--for the time being, one assumes--freedom of movement, you can expect the wealthy and the corporations to relocate to more business-friendly locales...

[Chaos Descending]

Paladin,

In the 1994 opinion United States v. Carlton, the U.S. Supreme Court unanimously held that retroactive tax laws did not violate the constitutional prohibition on Ex Post Facto legislation, provided their retroactive application was "supported by a legitimate legislative purpose furthered by rational means".[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_post...#United_States

I'm digging into it more.

EDIT: Reading into it a bit more, Oregon's retroactive tax may not be protected based on Carlton.

[Paladin]

^I thought there had been a SCOTUS ruling along those lines.

I don't see how, especially in an environment where we choose to live where we will partly because of things like taxes, that retroactive taxation can be Constitutional.

"You remember when you moved here last year and the income tax was 1%? Well, it's now 75%. Hope that isn't a bother. Make the check out to 'Revenue Service.'"

[Kyle]

Read the article about it today in the Oregonian. The breakdown by county was hilarious - you could color the 'yay' counties blue and the 'nay' counties red and you'd also have a map of how they voted for the presidency, pretty much.

And that's really kind of the issue here. People really walked the party line on this one. And it was a shoe-in to pass because the conservative counties barely vote. The county I grew up had barely a 20% participation rate, and a third of those were in support of the measures.

There's absolutely no excuse not to vote in Oregon - we do a mail-in ballot. It's quick, it's easy, there's no hassle. Just gotta be registered.

Where the "Citizens Against Job-Killing Taxes" failed was that they were essentially preaching to the choir instead of growing the congregation.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not wild about the legislation, but these measures passed largely due to apathy. It's the fault of the residents of the state, and they're the ones to blame.

[Volpone]

Got the news on in the other room. Sur-prahs, sur-prahs, sur-prahs! Tax revenue is going to come up, like, $181 million short of projections--even with this $700 million tax.

So instead of finding some places to cut, they're going to yank credits for wind farms. Guess I won't be working for Vestas any time soon.

But on the plus side, the ban on offshore oil drilling expired this year, so there's jobs, taxable revenue, and an energy source. Or it would be if they hadn't decided to renew the ban.

[Aquehonga]

I thought this thread would be about that quake that happened off the Oregon coast

[Muad Dib]

Originally Posted by Paladin

^I thought there had been a SCOTUS ruling along those lines.

I don't see how, especially in an environment where we choose to live where we will partly because of things like taxes, that retroactive taxation can be Constitutional.

"You remember when you moved here last year and the income tax was 1%? Well, it's now 75%. Hope that isn't a bother. Make the check out to 'Revenue Service.'"

What did you expect? SCOTUS "interprets" the Constitution and legislates from the bench.

[Liet]

Originally Posted by Aquehonga

I thought this thread would be about that quake that happened off the Oregon coast

I thought it would be about Volpone's furry fetish and a duck mascot outfit . . .

[Dr. Drake Ramoray]

Isn't there a volcano in Oregon we can root for? Or is that only Washington?

[Mandi]

I didn't vote....i'm dodging jury duty >.< that and I didn't really have a decision on those props anyways

[Tamar Garish]

Originally Posted by Mandi

I didn't vote....i'm dodging jury duty >.< that and I didn't really have a decision on those props anyways

That makes no sense if it's a mail-in ballot.

Admit it...you were lazy or you forgot.

No need to justify it.

[Tamar Garish]

Originally Posted by Liet

I thought it would be about Volpone's furry fetish and a duck mascot outfit . . .

So...of course you ran in here as fast as you could.

[Dr. Drake Ramoray]

Originally Posted by Tamar Garish

So...of course you ran in here as fast as you could.

"How you...Quaaackk!"

[Mandi]

ok I was too damn lazy, that and I didn't really know what to vote for *shrug*

[Sonic_Storm]

i missed my first year to vote kept putting it off and putting it off

[Mandi]

i voted the presidential election by mail ballot and they tried to rope me in for jury duty...mom lied and said I was away at college LMAO

[Kyle]

Originally Posted by Dr. Drake Ramoray

Isn't there a volcano in Oregon we can root for? Or is that only Washington?

Mt. Hood is considered to be dormant. Of course, if it erupted, there'd be some dumbass who'd figure out how to slide his little Japanese car into a ditch in the ashes, just like when it snows.

Originally Posted by Mandi

i voted the presidential election by mail ballot and they tried to rope me in for jury duty...mom lied and said I was away at college LMAO

I got a letter in the mail one day telling me to report to jury duty. I then informed them that it would be difficult for me to skip college and drive five hours to report for jury duty.

No one has bothered me since.

[Captain X]

It's funny, neither my grandparents nor my parents were ever called for jury duty in all the time they have lived where we currently do, but I've been called no less than 3 times, and the first two of those times were while I was a minor from a county I no longer lived in. As it turned out, though I could have served the third time, the issue was settled out of court. I basically told the county courthouse that they were lucky they'd caught me during the summer, because during the school year I would be unable to serve. Of course I only told them that because they sent me a letter proclaiming that they were going to try to keep me on some kind of retainer and call me up whenever the hell they felt like it.

[Zombie]

If there is one constitutional amendment we need it is one outlawing retroactive tax increases or decreases.

[Volpone]

UPDATE: New figures project a budget deficit of over a half billion. So we voted away something like 70,000 jobs and our state is a joke to other state and local governments (Nevada is running half-page ads in the "Portland Business Journal", telling businesses to come to Nevada), and we're still going to wind up with the cuts this was supposed to prevent. Someone doesn't understand the concept of the Laffer Curve and/or destroying your tax base.

[Bickendan]

Go Oregon.

Oh wait. This thread isn't about the Ducks.

[TheBrew]

Originally Posted by Mandi

i voted the presidential election by mail ballot and they tried to rope me in for jury duty...mom lied and said I was away at college LMAO

What is wrong with Jury duty? Yeah it's a hassle, but it is the most base obligation that we have to our fellow citizens. It is a greater obligation that serving in the military or paying taxes, IMO.

[TheBrew]

Volpone agrees: Did you see the episode where Fonzie had jury duty

Now I want to.

[Mandi]

Originally Posted by TheBrew

What is wrong with Jury duty? Yeah it's a hassle, but it is the most base obligation that we have to our fellow citizens. It is a greater obligation that serving in the military or paying taxes, IMO.

The problem with jury duty is that I have to travel an hour each way just to get there....on top of taking the time off of work which I can't afford....besides, i have absolutely no faith in the american justice system anyways

[LizK]

Originally Posted by Mandi

The problem with jury duty is that I have to travel an hour each way just to get there....on top of taking the time off of work which I can't afford....besides, i have absolutely no faith in the american justice system anyways

You forgot to add that in most places one has to pay to park (if one doesn't have public transit - and since a lot of trials have a tendency to go over the time when public transit runs, guess what most folks have to do) and that is not validated. And those parking places aren't cheap.
Now some employers will reimburse pay for their workers who do jury duty - but only for a limited time, and if that trial goes over that time ... you're screwed.
Plus in some instances, if you're place of work is open on the weekends, and you can work the weekend ... thus no time off at all. You're either sitting on your ass being bored to tears and/or grossed out or working your ass off.

[Chris]

Originally Posted by Mandi

The problem with jury duty is that I have to travel an hour each way just to get there....on top of taking the time off of work which I can't afford....besides, i have absolutely no faith in the american justice system anyways

I don't think someone who skipped out on jury duty is in a position to tell us that they don't have faith in the judicial system.

[LizK]

Originally Posted by Chris

I don't think someone who skipped out on jury duty is in a position to tell us that they don't have faith in the judicial system.

Well, to quote my sister who DID her duty, only to be dismissed days later when the prosecutor and defense attorney struck a plea bargain (and she told them both the same thing she said to me) "Why the hell did you waste my time when you knew you were going to bargain out? I lost X time being here doing my duty."

[Chris]

Originally Posted by LizK

Well, to quote my sister who DID her duty, only to be dismissed days later when the prosecutor and defense attorney struck a plea bargain (and she told them both the same thing she said to me) "Why the hell did you waste my time when you knew you were going to bargain out? I lost X time being here doing my duty."

Because they don't know that things will be bargained out, and there's a very slim chance the Judge could throw it out.