11 year shoots 8 year old dead!

We're talking protection here. How is it self-protection if you're shooting from 50 yards? What do you envision protecting yourself from?

I doubt I could reliably hit someone at 50 yards with a handgun.

As I said, it's been a long time since I was in the military. But ... I think that was the closest target - at least for the M-16. I've no idea what it was for a pistol.

The back row of targets on a typical military pistol range is 50 meters from the firing line.

I used to hit them consistently even with ragged out .45s.

dammit. meters. not yards.

Stranger. In the here and now.

Health insurance. Got it through the ACA remember? IIRC it was your idea.

Life insurance. Based on the strictly hypothetical possibility that I will die first. Not to mention the idea that my wife is incapable of providing for herself if such a situation happens.

If your wife is unable to care for herself, the life insurance is all the more important.

WTF? Sorry, my bullshit flag is up. I'm not buying anyone trained in elite tactics dropping a functional weapon (in a life & death situation) and using their hands. Obama's Secret Service must be "happy to see you" because they don't have a gun in their pocket. Personally I can't remember anyone in Iraq saying "yeah, if we are attacked I'll just set my weapon down and duke it out."

I shot my .40 sig at fifty yards, and I could get it on the paper, but it was with a two or three foot hold over.

So ... you think some Special Forces guy in a bar with a hundred other people would start shooting?

This particular conversation in this thread was specifically about personal protection.

Self defense situation don't only ever come up in crowded bars. What's the Special Forces guy doing in a crowded bar with a gun anyway?

only good people with guns can take out a bad guy with guns. What if there's a bad guy in the crowded bar with a gun?

Either way, for personal defense, guns are as arbitrary as a tazer. Therefore, my comment to Lanzman is still valid. The argument for second amendment rights is not about protection, it's about guns.

The post of mine you quoted was in reference to Lanzman's post about the second amendment rights being for protection. All of my responses since then have been on the same line of reasoning. If you wish to change that line of reasoning, then say so.

As for arbitrary, not every situation one finds oneself in, and needing protection requires a gun - and sometimes it's a hindrance. If you're looking for protection, you find whatever is available AT THE TIME. You don't walk around carrying a fire extinguisher because there might be a fire.

What line of reasoning? You suggested using a tazer. I said I don't trust tazers, and off you went.

I agree that a gun isn't always the answer when it comes to self defense. Sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't.

Ireland disagrees!

Ummm........maybe somebody already shooting at you from 50 yards? Remember the M-16 range in The Army? What's the most important pop-up target to engage - the closest target in the bunch? Yes, the 50 yard target. That's when your enemy is holy-shit close and not likely to miss - thus you might not want to miss them, or hesitate in shooting them. Maybe not a time to transition to "something else" unless it's an even bigger, more effective gun. And yes, guys were telling you what you wanted to hear to impress you. BTW dropping a weapon means now your threat can grab it - not a good strategy.

Why would she not be able to? She is in good health with a long work history.

Trying to lose his job/end his career/go to prison. Special Forces guys work and train hard to get where they are - they aren't likely to use deadly force or be in a position where they may have to use it. The average run-of-the-mill military member is far more likely to do something violent & stupid.

*Insert obligatory French Army joke*

These were torso-sized pop-up targets. As long as you hit them (didn't matter where) they'd go down.

For some reason I've always been a better long-distance shooter with a pistol than I am with targets that are closer.

I'm great with a bow - so if I'm ever transported via time machine to the Middle Ages I might survive!

For me it seemed less like aiming than indirect fire. The only reason I would shoot a handgun at somebody at 50 yards would be to get them to duck.

With a pistol shooting at 50 yards would be good for supressive fire. With a rifle you might be trying for "pin point" fire. Regardless on a moving target all bets are off at any range! I always thought popup targets were lame and unrealistic. That said if they moved laterally (grunts have access to these type of moving target ranges) it would be much better training.

We used to joke about calling for fire with those targets on the back row.

It is basically she would have all the bills the two of you were paying but would only have her income instead of both of your incomes.

I didn't go off. Just asked why you didn't trust them. I'm still not clear on your answer - did you answer?

When it comes to protection, you just said, a gun isn't always the answer. Let's say there's a case in which a tazer is the answer. Why don't you trust a tazer? This is a serious question. I've never fired a tazer. Do they not always work? Do they jam?

Well, @Stallion, looks like this thread will be about target shooting from here on.

Still, well done, that man! You tried.

Tazers don't always work. That's not to say guns always work, but a bullet will go through five layers of clothing. CNS disruption and/or rapid blood loss, or even just a blast to the pelvic girdle will stop a threat real quick no matter what the person is hopped up on. I don't trust a taser to be as effective is all.

Yes, especially to the pelvic girdle. Even if you are tough as nails or otherwise oblivious to pain, the pelvic girdle taken out means legs no longer do their job and you will be on the ground, period. It's basic physics. Also taking out both lungs will cause you to pass out from almost instant loss of blood pressure to the brain long before you will "bleed out" and die.