Chaos on the Bridge

Well, depends on your energy source. Every second the sun outputs no small amount of energy, I'd imagine if you were able to capture all that energy and convert it to matter with 100% efficiency (you can't, but we're playing with hypotheticals here), you could probably replicate an Earth-sized planet every few days (assuming you had a Magrathean replicator of course...) If you're stuck with our current range of energy sources, we could probably solve hunger and shelter, but wouldn't be building starships.

If you were able to use zero-point energy, you would effectively have an infinite power source (which is why we will be unlikely to ever have that, as it means we can have perpetual motion, so something like Casimir mirrors would probably require the same amount, or more, of energy to keep in place as they generate.) So yeah, go build yourself your own galaxy to play with at that point. May take some time...

^Star Treks own internal logic though tells you there are no infinite power sources. Otherwise the Enterprise and all the other ships and stations would not have repeated problems of "losing power".

But you still need a monetary system to track things. Matter doesn't come out of nowhere, so even if pizzas are as cheap as rocks and dirt, rocks and dirt still have to be dug up (destroying some natural place somewhere) and transported to the replicator. Of course Star Trek would hold that the matter is synthesized out of energy, but then you have to be transporting enough energy to make the matter, which can't really be done (the matter in a 16.5 ounce pizza equates to the energy output of a 10 megaton hydrogen bomb). So a replicator is just a fancy matter rearranger akin to a 3-D printer.

Second, even in a post-scarcity world, some things are still scarce - like good farmland. But even when land was free (the US western frontier) people still used money whenever they had some land that they'd upgraded with anything of value, such as a fence and a barn.

And many things have value only because they are scarce. The Babe Ruth Rookie card being a case in point. Those didn't lose their value just because we invented color printers, which in theory could produce an almost infinite number of Babe Ruth rookie cards for everyone. But those would be worthless, whereas a real one can still be worth close of a half million.

And of course time and attention are finite. If there's just the one guy who does a particular job, how do you get him to work on your project instead of somebody else's, coercion? Without currency there's no way for people to make distinctions or make sure outcomes reflect priorities. Almost everybody thinks their needs are more important than anybody else, and without money all you get are shouting matches and ego contests. Currency makes them put their money where their mouth is. If they really think their project is more important than everybody else's projects, they have to pony up and prove it - with cash.

I theorized once that if you did have widespread use of replicators and near infinite power sources like Star Trek that the economy would most resemble a middle age feudal economy.

That is just as a local king and his castle and dominions would strive to be as self sufficient as possible, in a "replicator/antimatter reactor" economy every small concentration of population, like a small town would in such a manner strive to be as independent as possible. And with the replicators and reactors that might be possible.

This of course would mean that trade would be huge between each small area. Not trade in actual goods or raw materials but trade in knowledge in the form of replicator templates.

For example, someone in Green Bay Wisconsin comes up with a new replicator template for a great new tricorder, they would sell that to someone who manufactured tricorders in Dayton and Canton, Ohio and so forth. There would still need to be "money" but it would be all electronic via a "credit" system.

Eh? That's like saying that because you've not got a Ferrari there are no Ferraris.

Yeah, that concept falls flat at the first outing. The replicators convert energy into matter, otherwise they'd be obliterating planets to get the few nanograms of technobabble matter they need to replicate a phaser.

So, no, there's nothing to track beyond energy use.

Given a) you wouldn't have many farmers (you can replicate food), and b) colonies, land isn't an issue. Want good farmland? Fine, mosey on over to Tau Bob Three and have a million acres of it.

Yeah, the DS9 ep with the baseball card was daft, scan and replicate could reproduce the original exactly. There'd be no way to tell, other than gut instinct, or some built-in flaw to the replicator. The form of value would change in a moneyless society, money is only one way of placing value on something, and a fairly blunt one at that.

Someone hasn't heard of charity. People do things for free all the time, and in the future what hobbies there will be will change markedly for ones we have now.

I mean, talk to someone a few centuries back about the Sealed Knot and Ren Fairs, and they'd laugh at the stupidity of the concept, mainly because of death and disease took the fun out of it for them. We've got Victorian societies, it's not beyond belief there'll be people waxing lyrical about being waiting staff, amused at the concept of needing tips.

But we also go back to what I said earlier, energy allowance gets topped up. You want to go build yourself a shuttle, but haven't enough time/energy at the local industrial replicator to get all the parts? Scratch someone's back, they'll scratch yours. Maybe transfer some energy allowance, maybe donate their time in return, maybe let you use their time at the industrial replicator.

We managed for a long time without money, then when we got advanced enough it was a much needed tool, because that's what money is - a tool.

And just as technology meant we left so many other inventions behind, then yes, the day will come we'll leave money behind.

You're talking about a return to a barter economy. Those are extremely inefficient as soon as the complexity of the possible transactions rises above the trivial. So you need someone to help you with A, in return for B. But you don't have B, you have C. So you do a favor for someone who wants C and offers D in return. Then you have D and do a favor for someone who has E, which is a deal that took you weeks to set up because both D and E are pretty obscure. It may take you five years to secure favor Z that you can trade for A, except the guy no longer wants B and you have to start all over.

So instead of making each transaction utterly unique, we make each one return a common variable, which we call currency. That lets us sell anything in return for X, and then we can use X to turn around and buy what we wanted, skipping 25 intermediate trades that were never necessary.

Ferengi as a "regular foe"? In TNG, I only remember maybe three appearances total before the race became DS9's go-to for comic relief.

I never got the vibe that everyone in the Federation was rich so much as there were enough resources that rendered a cash system as a relic of centuries past.

Even if Pillar was the shill behind Trek's stagnation, it wasn't his name as Executive Producer. The damage was done for TNG, but Voyager and even Enterprise could have been saved. TNG is fondly remembered because what it lacked in character it made up for with morality plays that stand out.....stories like I, Borg or The Measure of a Man and The Inner Light.

Hrm... I lost the whole first part of my reply.

But you can't use that much energy routinely or it would be a disaster. The energy to replicate a 10 pound turkey dinner is equivalent to a 100-megaton thermonuclear blast that would have a 15-mile diameter fireball and cause 3rd degree burns at 50 miles. You can't have such devices in everybody's kitchen or cabin without one of them fucking up because some Do-It-Yourselfer tried to tweak it. It would be just like letting everyone have their own thermonuclear warhead that they play with a dozen times a day and then express surprise that all the cities are vaporized a week after the product launch.

Secondly, even if the device was somehow completely safe, you couldn't power it. If it can make a 10-pound turkey dinner in 10 seconds and you fed it with electricity (which easily converts to other forms of energy), and assuming you ran it off 480 VAC (208/220 is more common for large appliances), you'd need an 8.5 Trillion amp power feed. To safely handle the current the wire would need to be over a mile in diameter, and you'll need three of those wires. That's why we'll never synthesize macroscopic amounts of matter (even grams) directly from energy.

But the US has massive amounts of good farmland now, and an enormous amount of wild lands, yet people still pay a fortune for property in San Francisco. Property value is all about location, location, location, and location isn't something you can replicate. You can make different locations gain in value, but all locations are and must be unique. If you want the house that overlooks the entrance to Star Fleet headquarters, you're going to have to pay through the nose because everyone else wants it too.

But the original Babe Ruth rookie card would still have its value - because it's authentic. There's a huge difference between a fake and something that someone really important actually touched, and used. Passing a fake off as a genuine article is called forgery, and it's punishable by jail time. It doesn't matter if it's a good forgery, or a perfect forgery, it's still forgery. There is a sword that George Washington actually wore, and there are fake ones that he didn't. The fake ones are essentially worthless except as mass produced reproductions.

Pretty much. As far as I can tell, the future post-scarcity society in Star Trek provides the very basics, the necessities for survival. That means food, water, shelter, basic clothing, and such. If humans are in the future what they are now, that won't be enough for 99% of them. They will want to build, create, explore, and so on. So, in essence, the future society isn't so much "get fat, do nothing lulz," it says "strive to reach whatever dream you want to pursue, and don't worry if you fail, we'll help you land on your feet again."

I would think most Federation citizens would spend their time digging bomb shelters so they could survive the yearly bombardment and invasion.

I watched half of it last night. While interesting, I'm not exactly sure how most of the participants can honestly look into a mirror right now. I mean, Roddenberry probably wasn't a good person. But all of those who deride him in this film - including Shatner - would be nothing without him or Star Trek.

He's been dead for 25 years or so. So let him rest in peace and enjoy the money and celebrity you guys have got because of him.

Eh? That's exactly NOT what the very show we are talking about describes it. BERMAN was the "honor Gene's wishes" guy who ended up with 2 seasons of a show they tried to make work with no conflict. According to the interviews here, it was only when Pillar came on board that they not only "made the trains run on time" production wise, but writers were turned loose to write stories that involved imperfect people in conflict. Plus, DS9 was created under his watch which, basically refutes your post just by it's existence.

Deep Space Nine is overrated anyway.

That said I haven't even seen this program. I'm basing my opinion on that from various science fiction publications like Starlog and Sci-Fi Universe.

Actually, more likely it would be similar to online software sales via the Internet today. Someone in Ohio wants the latest tricorder, they download a single-occurrence license to replicate one directly from the person in Green Bay's website, and sent it straight to their replicator (or, if they don't have a personal replicator, to their local Replicators-R-Us franchise). There won't be a specific tricorder manufacturer. Certainly not for small appliances like that. Perhaps "factories" will still exist for much larger items, but they won't be like any factories that we are used to).

Oh, and DS9 was not overrated. But since you've never seen the show, you really wouldn't know that.

I watched all but two episodes of Deep Space Nine.

Don't know why you think I've never seen the show.

Ah I see your mistake. When I said "I've never seen this program" I was referring to the Shatner documentary mentioned in the OP.

It's bizarre. It's on Netflix streaming. I paid money for it on iTunes though.

Since your message includes an unclear reference to "this program", is it really MY mistake?

Watched it last night, didn't really think it was that bad towards Roddenberry. It didn't strike me as criticizing him, but more of why he was involved and the issues that created.