Out There: Stephen Fry's penis terrorizes Ugandans

I've just watched both parts of Stephen Fry's new documentary Out There, where heartbreaking interviews with members of LGBT populations throughout the world talking about their experiences being the victims of homophobia alternate with cringe-worthy shouting matches between Fry and ignorant but politically powerful assholes who still insist that homosexuals are immoral and trying to recruit others.

Although the question Fry keeps returning to (particularly before an encounter with a homophobe) is why some people get so worked up about homosexuality - particularly in the face of so many other problems like the rape of women and girls, suicide, torture and murder - he never really succeeds in answering his question. He finds common themes in their answers, such as the argument that homosexuality is unnatural (countering that most 'unnatural; sex acts and injuries due to sex occur during heterosexual sex) or that homosexuals are a bad influence on children (countering that homosexuals are not trying to recruit anybody, and besides, it's straight parents creating all these gay people). He seems to go into the interviews trying to understand their point of view, but finishes each one trying in vain to persuade them to his views and usually resorting to shouting and scoffing, which is pretty disappointing as we've come to know Fry as articulate and kind. Which he certainly is with the numerous LGBT people and their families he talks with, but otherwise his confrontational interviews were worthy of a Penn & Teller: Bullshit! episode: mildly amusing to see someone so painfully ignorant get chewed up, but not quality argumentative material.

It's like the abortion issue; you're not going to change someone's morals.

I adore Stephen Fry, but even with kindness and reason he won't reach such people. When one's point of view is "tool of the devil trying to make me abandon my faith," nothing from the outside is getting in. It takes a lot more than reason and kindness to get through to such people.

But over an astonishingly short period of time, people's 'morals' on this issue have changed, and mostly to the benefit of LGBT people. Fry marvels at the change himself, remembering his youth when he learned to be ashamed and secretive, but then a few decades later seeing a Brazilian Pride festival where thousands and thousands of LGBT and straight people were celebrating equal rights.

I remember just five or so years ago, even here on Wordforge, just typing something in favor of gay rights would get you automatically 'accused' of being a homosexual yourself. Now if you openly support LBGT issues you're just another sane, reasonable person.

Well, I'm not talking about the average person, I'm talking the hardcore "God needs to wipe out all the fags" people. If we're talking regular folks who have simply been taught that being gay is wrong, then there's still plenty of hope for them. Hell, I was one of them. For me, it took a lot of introspection. I had to come to the realization that gay people weren't hurting me, they weren't hurting my family, and having scoured the Bible through and through, there just wasn't enough in there to warrant the level of condemnation so many of my fellow Christians had for gay people. So I began to move away from it, following lines of reason such as "do unto others," and "love thy neighbor." If there is something I do understand, it's love, and what passes for love among those Christians is a pale imitation at best; it's like trying to have an orgasm by rote, not because you really feel it, but because you're pretty sure that's what it looks and sounds like, so it must be the same thing.

That's a bit of an exaggeration. Wordforge's conservatism has always had a libertarian bent. Even 5 years ago the vast majority of the board was in favor of equal rights (civil unions) if not full gay marriage. Techman and Shepherd were notable exceptions.

Fry says the documentary might have made him suicidal.

OK, it might have been a bit more than five years, but it was still there, including among the libertarians.

Really? That's not how I remember it at all. Who do you remember saying such a thing?

I don't remember specific posters. I remember the accusations whenever LGBT issues came up. They weren't just by the ignorable trolls.

Shit, I remember when posts like THIS didn't go over like a lead balloon.

http://wordforge.net/index.php?threads/shutdown-supporters-now-that-its-all-over.101789/

Congrats, WF, you passed the test.

I love Stephen Fry. Few things can make me laugh like QI.

He's right. One of the things that shocked/pleased me when I returned after four years without visiting Wordforge was the dramatic change in attitudes about homosexuality. It might not be the sort of thing you'd notice day to day, but attitudes were distinctly different. It basically made me realize that marriage equality was going to happen.

I would expect that some of it back then was in jest, or an insult without any venom. We did and do still have strict homophobes on WF however.

Techman was always quite outspoken about his views on the subject.

Fast forward and the hard core fundamentalist christian elements of WF (Apostle, Dayton etc.) will still chime in with the views consistent of some of the Ugandan law makers.

I wholeheartedly disagree.

I think there has always been a large chunk of the population who never gave a shit about someone's sexuality. It's just that the bible-thumping assholes traditionally held a lot of power so very few people had the guts to speak up.

Thankfully, the bible-thumping assholes' grip on power has waned over the decades as more and more people embrace reality and rationality.

There might be some of that, but I think a bigger factor is that most people just hadn't given any real thought to the question. Initial reactions of "gross, unnatural," can easily enough transition to "do your own thing.". But it takes some exposure to the concept to get beyond the initial gut reaction. Certainly the fundies have done their best to fuel that first response, and to keep it burning as long as possible, but ultimately, people prefer to be reasonable.

To be fair, one of my gay friends did keep trying to recruit me.
I guess I'm irresistable.

I've never been bothered by the thought of gay couples, gay marriage, or equal civil rights for the LGBT community. I'm not going to lie and say that some of it makes me uncomfortable, but that is mainly because some of it does. For example a few years ago I was hit on by a transgendered person at a club. At first I thinking she's cute, but then I noticed the Adam's apple, the hands, and the shoulders. It wasn't that they were tansgendered but that I felt uncomfortable on how to respond. I didn't want to be an ass to them, and at the same time I was feeling "I'm annoyed that she's making me uncomfortable", so my reaction probably upset her since I stepped back and said "No" a bit too harshly.

And then there are also some people who "act" too gay. There was a guy in one of my classes that had to comment 2-3 times every class about being gay. Someone could mention something innocuous and he would have to make it into a gay statement. He would have to announce he was gay, very gay pretty much everyday. He would come into class and say things like "It's a great day to be gay!!" or "I love men so much, we all should love men!". The issue for me was if I came into class and made similar comments about women I would most likely get reported for sexual harassment.

Aside from instances like those I really don't care if you're gay or straight or in between. I have some very good gay friends, and those are the ones that don't play the stereotype because to me it's the same thing as the stereotype jock or any other stereotype.

Even though the board has changed somewhat in the LGBT stance, you will always have the ignorant Dayton/Poodle types. Especially with Dayton who feels and firmly believes that his world and personal life is being destroyed and actually thinks that anyone who is from the LGBT community is better off dead. Who the hell has the right to tell someone else who they can be with or who can make them happy.

One word: Sokar. He was the caricature of the universal hater. His departure left not so much a vacuum as a sigh of relief.

Now, Tamar will check in to tell us "Oh, he was just trolling. He was one of my BFFs and he was the sweetest guy ever IRL."

No. Courtney may have been the sweetest guy ever, but we never got to meet Courtney. We'll probably be visited by copycat Sokars, but that's all they'll be.

On the plus side, @garamet, Sokar hated everyone, not just teh ghey.

@Prufrock @gul,

Names mother fuckers! Can you give them? /Jules

Nope, can't remember the specifics, oit's a matter of atmosphere, and I can tell you it changed.

It was gradually shelved - to be dusted off, no doubt, at some future point - in favor of the SCoaMF meme, which went something like "I'm not a racist, he's just a failure as a President."

Which you might challenge with "What exactly are the failures?"

To which the response was "Everything! He's a SCoaMF!"

If you pursued it, they'd lapse into "because I said so" and ad hominem.

Brought to you by the letter "H" and the word "Hater."

As far as I can remember, it was mostly just Sokar.

When anti-gay bigotry ceased to be socially acceptable, the folks who couldn't wean themselves of it generally switched to saying they had nothing against marriage equality, but getting their panties in a wad about anybody considering it important.

It wasn't just Sokar, and it wasn't just at Wordforge. There has been a real shift in how people talk about homosexuality within just the past few years.

Like racialist talk and anti-Semitism, it's become frowned upon in polite society. That doesn't necessarily mean it isn't still there. It's just that in the workplace and at social gatherings, well, you just never know, do you? That guy/gal across the room may look straight, but could easily be one of them. And who knows who their friends are?

Like racism and anti-Semitism and misogyny, it will rear its ugly head again whenever one of them is in a position of power or authority that "us normal guys" want to argue is "because s/he's one of them."

Not buying it. Year after year there have been polls asking people's opinions on same sex marriage and other LGBT issues, and they almost always have an Other/Don't Care/etc option. But the majority of people were still opining against LGBT rights until a few years ago.

That's the American experience. The rest of the Western world is at least 20 years ahead of you on this issue.

There's a non sequitur if I ever saw one.