So nothing about this? Feds engage in cattle rustling, assault, in Nevada

Indeed. What we are seeing from FF is a basic variant on the Gish Gallop. The point is for the creationist or libertarian to drown his opponent in irrelevancies and strawmen, distracting from the argument at hand and exhausting the opponent until he says "I give up," at which point the creationist or libertarian declares victory in the main argument despite never having addressed it at all.

Yep, and I laugh at each effort to claim that the questions either cannot or have not been answered, as if there is some sort of gotcha there. Irrelevant questions are irrelevant, and most usefully ignored.

I have to admit, unless someone can disprove what is in bold, Bundy is clearly in the wrong. The end.

Whether or not the BLM needs it's own SWAT team is another conversation and one I'd be willing to have.

So would I, actually. You might be the perfect wordforger to answer this (not a rhetorical question) : What's the alternative in a case like this?

I have no doubt that an unelected, unaccountable bureaucracy within a bureaucracy that has the unprecedented authority to declare whatever land they want under their control has declared this land under their control and off limits to grazing. The question is why? We know it's not to protect the tortoise, so what is the real reason? When those questions are answered,( which they have been) by leftforge, then we'll get to the heart of the matter and it will invalidate any of the BLM's actions towards the Bundy's. No human shield bs, just answers to those questions.

Glad you can finally acknowledge this.

Yeah, I answered them. Harry Reid is behind this.

Unfortunately, there aren't a whole lot of options for either side. If everything is legal and above board, not only does the BLM have the right to use force, they're actually Constitutionally obligated to use whatever force is required to enforce a court order. In most cases, Law Enforcement Officers are allowed to use their judgement within a sometimes broad framework of laws and regulations. But, that changes when someone in the Judiciary, whether it be a Judge, Magistrate, or equivalent, puts pen to paper. You are required, by law, to execute the order or instruction exactly as it's written. At that point, the decision of whether or not to act has been removed from the Law Enforcement Agency.

So, lets assume that a Federal Judge, or equivalent, has ruled that Mr. Bundy is illegally grazing and that same official has issued an order stating that Mr. Bundy's cattle be seized pursuant to that ruling. The only choice the BLM has is how and when they do it. I said that to say this: One of the most obvious symptoms of the militarization of Law Enforcement in the US is the desire to use methods that I think are well beyond "overwhelming force." Let me give you an example of this principle. A rule of thumb for the arrest of a suspect on a warrant by plain clothes officers is that you send one officer for every 75-100lbs the suspect weighs. So, "normal force" for a 160lb suspect would be to send two officers to arrest that suspect. Overwhelming force would be to send four. The tendency in American Law Enforcement would be to send ten.

Does that answer your question? I know I wandered a bit, but there are a lot of ideas floating around in my head about how this could have been handled.

Based on that overtly biased and unproven starting point, I'm sorry, but it would be a waste of our time to even attempt that conversation because nothing I say would convince you otherwise. However, if you would like to disprove the truth and legality of the bolded statements in my original post, I give you my word that I'll do my best to impartially review the evidence you provide.

Amazing how quiet it is in here suddenly...

With apologies to Tammy Wynette:

Sometimes it’s hard to be a woman
Giving up your life for just one man
You’ll have bad times
And he’ll have good times
Put you in his place to “take a stand”

But if you love him
You’ll forgive him
Even if your blood runs in the sand
And if you love him
Oh, be proud of him
‘Cause he thinks that’s what makes him a man

Stand in front of your man
Give him two arms to cling to
A human shield to come to
When nights are cold and lonely

Stand in front of your man
And show the world you love him
‘Cause he won’t risk his own life
Stand in front of your man

Here's a dramatization of the legality of the land grab.

You have absolutely no idea what you've just done, have you?

What do you think I've done, enlighten me.

Go back and reread Elwood's posts. Slowly. See if you can figure out why right now you look like a yappy little Yorkie challenging a Humvee that just drove down your street.

Seriously, when does he not come off that way?

I just keep hoping he'll stop parroting and learn to think...

What's inaccurate about this statement: The BLM is a bureaucracy within another bureaucracy that it is unelected. They are not accountable to anyone. They have unprecedented authority to to declare land under their control. In the 90s they took over the land in question and raised the grazing fees. They drove all of the other ranchers out of the area. Through courts and other legal manipulation, they won a case that allowed them to take a ranchers property without compensation. They set up shop near the rancher's property with enough personnel to invade a small country. They are headed by a former top aide of Harry Reid.

Accuracy is iffy in the first sentence, and basically gone in all the others.

I recently encountered a link to a new-age bullshit post generator. It makes more sense than Federal Farmer, John Castle, and Captain X:

By flowering, we dream.
We heal, we grow, we are reborn. Today, science tells us that the essence of nature is presence.
Our conversations with other warriors have led to a summoning of ultra-perennial consciousness.

Crystal healing may be the solution to what’s holding you back from a staggering rekindling of peace. As you heal, you will enter into infinite peace that transcends understanding. Through crystal healing, our hopes are engulfed in curiosity.

Lifeform, look within and recreate yourself. It can be difficult to know where to begin. Although you may not realize it, you are spatial.

Potentiality is the richness of wisdom, and of us. You and I are beings of the stratosphere. Nothing is impossible.

We must unify ourselves and bless others.

The multiverse is calling to you via morphogenetic fields. Can you hear it? How should you navigate this non-local world? Have you found your circuit?

Without fulfillment, one cannot heal. Only a visitor of the solar system may generate this spark of life. Stagnation is born in the gap where sharing has been excluded.
----------------
Yup. Definitely more sense there than in their posts. And there's no sense there at all.

Nope.
Is the BLM elected, no. Are they a bureaucracy yes. Within a bureaucracy, yes, they are part of the department of the interior and national park system. Are they accountable, when was the last time you saw hearings on the BLM by congress? Is their authority unprecedented, I've never seen any other agency that has the type of power they have. Did they raise the grazing fees, you betcha'. Have all of the other ranchers left the area, yep.

None of this is relevant.

In other words:

Castle, your Curly avatar is awesome. It makes me literary lol.

Weird, because that's not even the same statement you made in the previous post.

Yes it is, you just didn't read it.

Not astonishingly, it isn't. At any rate, as stated before, the first sentence was iffy, which is to say factually not incorrect, but using judgmental language. The rest? Pretty much dead wrong.

Ok, whatever you say.

I don't. Are you too chicken-shit to answer my questions, then?

When you can get me a statement from Mack's wife, I'll have enough information to form a judgment about her view of the situation, but not necessarily of the other wives and children who were "volunteered."

Until then, "Insufficient facts always invites danger, Captain." (The only time Spock makes a grammatical error, and it makes me cringe almost as much as Kirk's misuse of "nourish" for "nurture," but I digress.)

Here, you put your finger squarely on the reason for which 90% of this thread is a waste of time.