Israel is Coming Apart at the Seams, It Seems

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by Tuckerfan, Mar 26, 2023.

  1. 14thDoctor

    14thDoctor Oi

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    Intentionally targeting civilians that they're 100% sure are civilians is going too far.

    Poisoning the water supply (not just refusing to fix it after Hamas rips out the pipes to build rockets) is going too far.

    Dropping 2000lb bombs on refugee camps when there are no rockets being fired from them and no intel suggesting Hamas is hiding there is going too far.

    Oiling your gun with bacon grease "so the Muslims you shoot won't go to heaven" is going too far.

    Raping Palestinians is going too far.

    Castrating captured Palestinians before releasing them is going too far.
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  2. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    Do you believe that those things have happened?
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  3. 14thDoctor

    14thDoctor Oi

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    As far as I've heard, none of things have happened so far.

    There could have been individual instances of some of those things happening that I haven't heard about, but so long as it was by rogue IDF guys and they were disciplined for doing so, I wouldn't accuse "Israel" of doing it. One Irish serial killer doesn't make Ireland a nation of serial killers, y'know?

    I've seen some "IDF sniper executes a helpless civilian" clickbait headlines, but the actual shooters are never identified in the videos, and the videos are always short and blurry enough that it's a question of whether or not the person getting shot was an actual civilian, since Hamas fighters don't tend to wear uniforms. :clyde:
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  4. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    Well it's good to know you at least have theoretical lines, Mr. I Support Ethnic Cleansing
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  5. 14thDoctor

    14thDoctor Oi

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    I accept that what I propose technically fits the definition of "ethnic cleansing," but I prefer to think of it as a restraining order imposed at the international level. If Gaza is a "prison" as so many insist, surely sentencing the prisoners there to "exile" instead is more humane than keeping them incarcerated indefinitely.

    Of course, your preferred plan is for all the Israelis to leave and go somewhere else, but for some reason it's not ethnic cleansing when you suggest it. :chris:
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  6. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    The difference is that I haven't suggested that at all.
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  7. 14thDoctor

    14thDoctor Oi

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    You sure?
    And you've been awfully silent whenever Amaris calls for "the Zionists" to get the fuck out of Israel and "go where they're wanted." :chris:
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  8. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    "Leave" refers to the occupied territories, not to the entire Levant. And I've already had a discussion with Amaris about this earlier in the thread. As I said then, I favour a federal solution, of which there are various blueprints circulating.

    At some point settlers do become natives with a right to be there, exercise self-determination and so on. That's what Israelis are now.
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  9. 14thDoctor

    14thDoctor Oi

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    Serious question: What happens if the Palestinians get their own completely independent state with proper defined borders that Israel promises to respect, then the following Monday morning the legally recognized government of Palestine resumes firing rockets into Israel and sending attack squads across the border to kill as many Israelis as possible? What is Israel allowed to do in response on that day?
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  10. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    Then they would have a right to self-defence as commonly invoked. Which isn't a blank cheque under international law, but see Ukraine for example.

    Of course, a final settlement would need to head this possibility off in advance.
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  11. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    We have, but you are still lying about it. Here you go once again, emphasis mine:

    And
    As to what constitutes going to far, for some people it's a significant number of civilian causalties - regardless of the fact that a terrorist organization runs their government, uses them as human shields, and explicitly states that they are there to be martyrs. Literally saying it is the highest aspiration for any Palestinian to be martyred for the cause. It's a death cult.

    I can understand that point of view as a reasonable conceit without agreeing with it.

    Oh, and remember when Hamas stated that their goal for the attack was a 'permanent state of war'

    https://www.straitstimes.com/world/...ody-gambit-to-create-a-permanent-state-of-war

    Again, even if Israel states that they will stop the war in exchange for the hostages, multiple Hamas leaders have pledged to continue to attack Israel.

    What do you call a genocidal state living next door to you that says that peace is not possible?
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  12. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    Ah, so no right of self defense against terrorists that have attacked you on the order of 15,000 times in the last 20 years, and massacred your people, have the goal of destroying your state, run the government of a territory on your border that you peacefully left 18 years ago, and have stated openly they will never accept your existence and will continue to massacre your people until you are destroyed.

    Jesus, you are a piece of work.
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  13. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    That's just a deluded summary of the situation, but whatever.
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  14. NAHTMMM

    NAHTMMM Perpetually sondering

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    How would this happen? A promise not to attack Israel, or disarmament?
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  15. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    I've heard various ideas. Possibly including those things, though they can't be one-sided. Also international involvement - via guarantees, a peacekeeping presence or a role in administration. But this is why I think a federation which deeply entwines the governance of both people is a good idea. Kind of like what happened in Europe after WW2 with the EC.
    Unitary states just don't work so well in these kinds of situations.
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  16. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    Now the IDF say that they will move to a large-scale assault on Rafah, where there are fully a million displaced, starving and sick people in a tiny area with nowhere else to go.

    Germany - behind them all the way so far- have warned them not to. They probably will anyway.

    Is this the endgame? Will they try to force these people into Egypt? What will Egypt do?
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  17. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    This is what passes for journalism in the New York Times these days.

    20240203_214509.jpg
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  18. Bickendan

    Bickendan Custom Title Administrator Faceless Mook Writer

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    Uh... it's an Opinion piece in the Opinion section by an Opinion Columnist :unsure:

    I mean, there's enough to rag the NYT about, particularly on how it's not attempting to hide biases in stories like those about trans issues, but taking them to task on an actual opinion piece?
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  19. Nyx

    Nyx Guest

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    It didn't accidentally end up there, though. It's not like someone slipped and the article just fell onto the internet. It would be like if I published an opinion piece that said trans people should be shot to preserve heterosexual supremacy. Yeah, the paper didn't technically endorse it, but they gave it a LOT of publicity and a huge platform by which to say those things, all with the legitimacy of the New York Times behind it.
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  20. 14thDoctor

    14thDoctor Oi

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    Yeah, I gotta concur with Rick here. Newspapers consciously choose which voices to amplify in the editorial section. There's nothing innocent about what they decide to print. :shrug:
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  21. Bickendan

    Bickendan Custom Title Administrator Faceless Mook Writer

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    That's true. I'll concede.
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  22. Nyx

    Nyx Guest

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    I appreciate that. I mean, you're not wrong in that it's technically not the paper itself, but these days I'm tired of giving these papers the benefit of the doubt. They know what they're doing by now.
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  23. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    Special Envoy for Sexual Violence in Conflict visit Israel, says after seeing the evidence of sexual atrocities committed by Hamas she hasn't slept in a week.

    “I saw things here that I have not seen anywhere in the world. The world outside cannot understand the magnitude of the event. I myself also internalized the magnitude of the event just by being here myself,” said Patten.

    “Only when I am here do I understand the magnitude of the pain, the insult and the anger of Israel regarding how the world did not sufficiently understand and treat the atrocities that happened to you,” she added.

    https://www.jns.org/un-envoy-in-israel-world-cant-understand-magnitude-of-oct-7/

    She is expected to release a report by the end of February. A team of international lawyers that came with her are staying in Israel to document that occurrences.



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  24. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    Note the context of this is important, because previously Patten had famously denied the wide spread allegations of rape on 10/7, telling rape survivor and former Miss Israel 'maybe you should have all the facts' when she was confronted over her office's refusal to address rape being done by Hamas as part of the 10/7 massacre.

    Evidently, Miss Patten now has all the facts.

    https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/i...ments-for-unrwa-in-face-of-defunding-sr17w04a
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  25. Steal Your Face

    Steal Your Face Anti-Federalist

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    Roger Waters is now on the Zionist hit list. Tell me more about how the liberals care about free speech.
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  26. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    Channel 4 review the Israeli claims about UNRWA and found no evidence provided. Report.

    UNRWA have also asked for evidence from the Israelis and recieved none. They've been reduced to responding to intelligence leaks that have come out in the press.

    Israel have been out to get UNRWA for years.

    With the Palestinian people, their lands and political life fragmented and divided, UNRWA is the only organisation that unites them across Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Gaza and the West Bank. It helps to provide education, healthcare, social services and employment.
    The elimination or degrading of these things is important to the goal of ethnically cleansing Palestinians. In particular, the Israelis make a lot of noise about UNRWA education - claiming that it teaches anti-semitism. But what that mostly means is that it makes the young aware of their history. The Israelis would prefer - as is their preverb - that "the old die and the young forget".

    The IDF have repeatedly hit UNRWA facilities in their attacks on Gaza, despite knowing the co-ordinates and making their usual denials. But Gazans now have had all of their educational infrastructure destroyed. And the Israelis have no intention of that being rebuilt.

    UNRWA only exists in the first place because it was seen as intolerable that Palestinians be catered for by UNHCR, which is the body tasked with assisting refugees everywhere else in the world. That's because UNHCR has a mandate to repatriate the refugees.

    Evidence from UNRWA on genocidal actions was a major part of the case against Israel in the ICJ.

    So not only does the cutting of aid which they've precipitated exacerbate the starvation in Gaza and attempt to undermine the ICJ case, it facilitates the forced relocation of Palestinians and the annexation of the remaining Palestinian territories.

    That a handful off their 30,000 employees may have been involved in some militant activity is unsurprising. It would be statistically very surprising if that were not the case. But destroying the organisation in response (particularly in the current situation) is an obscene reaction. Do we defund the NHS because of Lucy Letby and Harold Shipman?

    Nobody should believe anything that they say in this regard unless it comes with copperfastened proof.
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2024
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  27. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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  28. 14thDoctor

    14thDoctor Oi

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  29. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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  30. 14thDoctor

    14thDoctor Oi

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