Greek banks closed, capital controls in place.

So there's much room for improvement then! Let them keep trying, what can it hurt?

Keep?

You're part of a group marriage?

Hey I'm not judging Dan. You can call them what you want.

Is that like, Turkey south?

Dayton with a merkin?

From Joseph Stiglitz.

Socialism works until you run out of other people's money.

Well to be serious here: the leftists have been in power for all of five months. But the carnage happened in the past 15 years.

So why didn't that unfettered financial corporate cronyism destroy the economies of Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland, Great Britain, France, Germany, Switzerland, or Belgium? Why Greece?

None of those countries are any where near as corrupt as Greece nor does it have political patronage systems as entrenched as in Greece.

Honestly, economically and regulator ally Greece has never really modernized and they are still stuck with the archaic patronage system set up by the dictatorship in the 1970's.

So it wasn't the result of unfettered financial corporate cronyism, it was corruption, political patronage - and paying way too many people not to work.

Because Greece has never had a strong state like most of those.
The early industrial development of northern Europe saw the growth of urban centres with a new working class which was divorced from the prior peasant communities from which it sprang. They organised into new structures based around the state - trade unions, political parties and a modern civil service.
In Greece (and in other southern European countries) industry developed at a much later stage and the peasant villages simply moved wholesale into the cities. Old allegiances were not broken and people did not see themselves as belonging to the state - instead they saw the state as an Other. This led to more corruption, a difficulty in collecting taxes and a tendency for the civil service to be inefficient, politicised and to be stuffed with cronies.

There are indeed cultural issues that need to be dealt with and reform needed. But this will take a long time. Subjecting the Greek people to debt slavery is not likely to achieve it.

Nah, even their so-called "conservative" party is left-wing by most standards. Remember, since WW2 Greece has essentially been run alternately by communist or socialist parties. New Democracy and PASOK are essentially different sides of the same coin (i.e., left-leaning). But it's not just the lefties at fault; cronyism and corruption are so embedded in Greek political culture anyway.

Rick, I was with you until that last sentence.

This is likely the beginning of the end for Europe as we know it. Greece has all but failed. Italy and Spain will be shortly behind. And once the Muslims take over France, it will only be the Third Reich left standing.

Because none of those countries had similarly extreme corruption in government, and so the cronyism was less bad.

Ah, I see I somehow lagged behind there.

So it's half-time then? Muadholtz would have loved this thread!

Greece crisis: No vote would mean euro exit, leaders warn

It might, eventually, but European politicians are overstepping the power of their offices drastically in making such a threat.

I doubt it's the one you're thinking of, but there's a lesson for most Western democracies - don't get get inured to politics being a game of who bullshits the best.

Greece had a very long time of voting in a government and then waiting for the u-turn, indeed they even developed a phrase for it, so used to it they had become.

In Syriza they voted in a selection of politicians who, at least, walked the walk. Although they may be regretting it now.

That's not really much of a threat. The main reason for Greece to stay on the euro was always that the banking system would collapse if Greece left and the consequences of such a collapse would make things even worse than they already are. Well, as of today, the collapse is already happening. Might as well take this opportunity to get off the euro and stop subsidizing the German banking system at the expense of allowing the Greek people to starve.

It's impressive they've reached this point, but the whole thing has reeked off a Mexican stand-off for the last 5 months.

You've the IMF, backed into a corner by Europe (read Germany) so as not to offer debt forgiveness
You've Greece, who've pretty much drained all trust by behaving dishonestly since the bailout first began
You've Eurogroup (read Germany) who look an awful lot like the nuns in the Blues Brothers, thwacking disapprovingly away anything that whiffs of debt forgiveness
You've Syriza, who've pretty much proved academics know all about theory and fuck-nothing about practice
And finally, the ECB, who've been watching the plank they've balanced on shrink into a very thin tightrope.

The rest of the world has pretty much watched a live-action YouTube video on how not to run a currency union.

They're fed up with Greece. Not the people, just the governments.

But yes, a no vote is exiting the Euro, and, by extension, the EU. The ECB will see to the former, and given the ideal of being in the EU is to eventually ascend to the Euro, exiting that means the latter too.

They'll be let back in the EU, but if anyone knows their history of Greece and currency unions, they'll not be allowed anywhere near the Euro again.

In there her and now though, a no vote means no more Euro, means IOU notes, a parallel currency and, finally, a divorce. Which will be good for Greece, so long as they don't suck up to Russia, in which case we'll have a shiny new Greek proverb about being wary of Russians bearing gifts.

Huge pro-government show of support in Greece

Not yet, at least.

Greece will likely be out of the Euro tomorrow and there will be nothing to vote on. Syriza knows this and wants it to happen but is trying to come up with excuses so they can blame other people.

There's no chance of that happening tomorrow. Buy a clue.