Greek banks closed, capital controls in place.

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by Dinner, Jun 28, 2015.

  1. T.R

    T.R Don't Care

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    Oh boo hoo. Let's get angry and play victim over forced conditions after the THIRD bailout in five years.
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2015
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  2. Liet

    Liet Dr. of Horribleness, Ph.D.

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    If the money was a loan then it wasn't really a bailout. The EU purchasing and collecting on Greek debt is just a transfer of the right to collect from one party to another. It happens every day. When the bank you got your mortgage from inevitably sells the mortgage to another party, you are not bailed out and neither were the Greeks. Previous purchases of Greek debt were called "bailouts" because that was a word that could be used to sell a bucket of austerity shit to the Greek people; it's a word, however, that they're not really buying anymore.
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  3. Dinner

    Dinner 2012 & 2014 Master Prognosticator

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    The truth is French and German banks have already been bailed out. Most Greek debt has been bought by government entities. This was done back in 2010. So private banks made the loans but government entities now hold them.

    This is another reason there will not be any debt relief. Any debt forgiveness would come directly put of the pockets of taxpayers in those two countries and politically that would be a lead balloon. Opposition parties would eat the majority parties alive during election time. All politicians are the same; they want another term in office and that won't happen if they are seen as being irresponsible with taxpayer money.
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  4. gul

    gul Revolting Beer Drinker Administrator Formerly Important

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    It's becoming more and more clear that France and Germany are the countries guilty of practicing reckless economics. It was idiotic for them to buy the Greek debt. They should take the hit for their stupidity.
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  5. Dinner

    Dinner 2012 & 2014 Master Prognosticator

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    Greece badly needs market liberalizations and a decrease in regulations especially wrt employment. They are dead last in the EU on that front and just ahead of loan but behind the central African republic.

    They are not in a good place and we're not even in the best of times. Doing something about that will do more for their economy than any government spending especially since their government cannot spend due to having no credit. Sell off the dozens and dozens of state owned companies, sell off the ports and airports, sell off the hotel's the convention centers the horse race tracks, etc... And use the money to pay down debt.

    They will be collectively better off especially if Syriza stops putting up road blocks to international investment. Anyone who wants to invest in that basket case should be welcomed not blocked as Syriza has been doing. It would also help if they reformed their tax system so 80% of Greeks didn't cheat.
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  6. Liet

    Liet Dr. of Horribleness, Ph.D.

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    Very true. Right now, though, I'm more worried by their reckless politics than their reckless economics, although the two are closely related.

    Who benefits from the continuation of German austerity and humiliation policies for Greece? Who benefits from the nurturing of Greek xenophobia, the collapse of Greek liberalism, and the inevitable realization of the Greek people that staying on the euro and in the eurozone is an impossibility if the Greek people ever want to have a viable economy? Why is Merkel doing her best George W. Bush impression by having Germany and its lesser partners act as clients of Golden Dawn, much like the U.S. acted as a client of Iran by initiating the second Gulf War?
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  7. gturner

    gturner Banned

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    Well, it's been obvious for an extremely long time that Greece needs to be broken up. It did well as a collection of city states. Everybody was afraid of facing Athenian or Spartans battle lines. The only lines the Greeks form now are at ATM machines to withdraw French and German cash.
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  8. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    I was in London for the weekend so didn't have much time for posting, hence my limited comments. There's a lot to say about this farce though.

    If the comments of Yannis Varoufaikis since resigning are to be believed (and I think they are) then Tsipiras called the referendum expecting and hoping that he would lose, thus allowing him to resign and wash his hands of the whole thing. Also taking into account his puzzling insistence that the "no" vote would strengthen his hand, this reflects terribly poorly on him and his strategy.

    Once the Greeks did vote "no" and the EU started turning the screw, his view seems to have been that leaving the Euro wasn't an option, forcing him to accept any and all demands that might be made of him. I'm not sure why this was the case - surely there are contingency plans and credible exit strategies. If not, then that again reflects terribly poorly on SYRIZA over the past few months and perhaps on the Greek civil service (yeah, I know).

    With Tsipras desperate to stay in at all costs, there was a powerful faction within the EU that wanted to push Greece out by presenting them with a deal so harsh that they wouldn't accept it. The result of this is Tsipras signing up to the insane plan that is being debated in the Greek parliament right now.

    Tsipras has however said that there was a gun to his head and while pushing the deal through, he doesn't agree with it. Senior people in Greece are calling it a Terms of Surrender. Threats made by Schauble and co. include an end to military protection, implying an invitation to Turkish aggression. The final deal suspends Greek democracy by having all legislation approved by the EU in advance and the repeal of practically all that SYRIZA has done to date.

    Quite what the long-term plan of the EU is here, I'm not sure. Obviously Merkel wants to sate the tabloid press or whatever, and a lot of leaders want to send a warning to voters and political parties who might be prompted to break ranks on the austerity agenda as SYRIZA have done. But the reality is that Greece will only descend further into the abyss. We'll be back here, only worse, before long. And if there's another recession in Europe, something that could happen at any time, the whole Euro project will be in danger of collapse.

    The IMF - prompted, one has to believe by the US Treasury - has suddenly begun behaving rationally, and has called for substantial debt relief. This is perhaps a chink of light.

    Expect Golden Dawn to become a serious force in Greece in the near future.
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2015
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  9. Dinner

    Dinner 2012 & 2014 Master Prognosticator

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    In the long run it would be better for Greece to be out, especially since they are too stupid to run a functioning economy much less a competitive one, but if this deal gets them to reform some of their more stupid practices... Well, that is good.

    Eventually they just might need debt relief but not until they stop being deadbeats and actually do some good reforms. Show good will first.
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