Israel is Coming Apart at the Seams, It Seems

Just because people do not like LGBT people does not mean I want them starved to death, have white phosphorous dropped on them, bombed, or genocided in other ways so Isreal can steal their land. If I did want something like that to happen I would at least want it to happen to MAGAt republicans in america.

How is it supposed to be helpful to me that Isreal is killing palestinians? You are pretending the Isrealis are killing them because they hate gays, but that is not true in the slightest as the orthodox jews also hate their glbt family members and no Isreali is going to kill them for that.

Please do stop pretending the Isrealis are killing the palestinians because of their hatred for the GLBT community.

Oh, and if you do have to know, maybe some GLBT people are a little bit better than all you people in that they merely want to exist and not revenge kill so many people.

I don't want them bombed.
But the fanatical devotion to their cause is an odd choice.
I ask again, why haven't other atrocities caused such an uproar? Why is it this one?
It's because it gets the most ink. It gives these protestors the most clout. You can tell that's what this is about because e one of their big sticking points is "We don't want to be held responsible for the damage we caused."
They want all the plaudits with none of the consequences. Because what matters to them is the rush of power they feel in doing all this.

The why now question is a good one as I was already on this shit two decades ago and no one really cared very much. It is the same as asking why was George Floyd such a catalyst for protesting. It is not like the US was treating unarmed black men decently before that.

I have been pretty much out of this whole thing for a bit since it started. I agree it is the same old thing that has been happening for a long time with Isreal.

Thje real reason why I jumped in is because Biden and his shitbag dems have been failing to get much done over and over. All of a sudden when a bunch of kids are protesting the mainstream dems decided it was time to form ranks with the fascist republicans and start banning speech critical to Isreal. I am not really sure it is great for his re-election to get so many people pissed at him over putting his needed young supporters in prison for protesting palestinian genocide.

It is just obnoxious. It really is not making sense, but the dems are doing it for some reason. The only things I can think of are conspiracy related. I just do not like to be told it is a hate crime to criticize a foreign government. It really makes me wonder who the dems serve when they decide to cut ranks and bipartisan an effort to destroy the first amendment by respecting the establishment of a religious foreign ethnostate.

There is no chance Hamas wins this fight. None. A fight they certainly started. There was relative peace prior to 10/7, there were no active large scale invasions or concerted bombing campaigns. It was the massive attack against Israel that started this.

So why should Israel make all the concessions? Who in their right mind would reward their attacks and constant threats to destroy Israel with official recognition of a 2 party state?

You know what would save Rafah from invasion? Hamas stepping down as the government of Gaza, and turning over the hostages.

If your government says peace is never possible, don't be surprised when you don't get peace.

Don't forget it hurts Biden's political chances, which increases Trumps. This particular measure is a zero sum game.

So all the foreign powers that want Trump back are pushing this as hard as they can. As does the GOP. They want to amplify this issue, now.

And we've seen, morons such as Rick think there's no difference between the two. He wants the US to suffer. He can't think one step ahead and realize that Trump is far worse than Biden for the Palestinians, let alone actively has discussed camps for Muslims in the US. Or that the US pulling out of NATO could cause WWIII in Europe and the invasion of Taiwan.

I feel bad for the Gazans, I do. They were sold a bill of goods by Hamas, and had Syria, Iran, etc dicking around with them to get at Israel. They've been pawns, and now they are being decimated over it while their "supporters" gleefully rub their hands.
Israel, even outside of Netanyahu, is in a no-win-scenario. You literally can not negotiate with people who just want you dead. But the average Gazan is not doing that. It's Hamas, who don't really care how many Gazans die as long as it gives Israel bad PR. In fact, they pretty much encourage it by putting their weapons and offices and shit inside schools and hospitals.
It's like that Eric Andre meme, with Eric-as-Hamas asking "How could Israel do this?"
That's why Hamas has been stealing food. That's why they've been shelling relief infrastructure.
And Netanyahu is happy to oblige, because it keeps him in power for another day.

I don't feel bad for them at all.

The Palestinians in power over Gaza have always wanted to destroy Israel. They had the opportunity to change tack when Fatah and the PLO finally realized that they couldn't win after 60 years of terrorism and causing havoc throughout the region, killing not only Jews but Muslim leaders that wouldn't commit to killing Jews. Likud split in 2005, with Sharon starting the Kadima party which unilaterally gave land for peace, leaving Gaza and using the Israeli military to force Jewish settlements out of the region. How did the Gazans respond? They voted in Hamas, who had 'kill all the Jews' in their charter.

From the Grand Mufti allying with the Nazis during WWII to Azzam Pasha, Secretary General of the Arab League stating that they would annihilate the Jews in a massacre that would be remembered like the Tartars and the Crusades in 1947 (which they tried to do in 1948), on and on and on any time they had a chance for peace they refused it. They refused Camp David, when they got virtually everything they wanted -except the destruction of Israel. They refused Oslo. Their allies killed Anwar Sadat for making peace, and a Palestinian immigrant killed Bobby Kennedy, and a very real chance we got Nixon because of that.

So no, no sympathy for me. This didn't have to happen either. They launched the attack that started this.

If your government is insane for 100 years, bad things happen. And it's deserved.

Last vote was 2006. Fatah lost by 3% of the vote.

America elected Nixon, are they still to blame for HIS crimes?

Are they still to blame for Trump? He only JUST won in 2016. I'm not gonna give up on y'all just over that.

There's a lot of Gazans who are fed up with Hamas. We're seeing that now.
And those I do feel for. I feel for the kids born into that regime, raised on a steady diet of hate their whole lives and no way to change it.
Hamas, Hezbillah, etc, they don't exist in peace with Israel. So they do all they can to keep the fires going.
Andnow Israel is bombing the ever-loving fuck out of Gaza. I just hope in ten years the kids watching their homes get blitzed realize it doesn't have to be perpetuated.

This isn't one election, this is the actions of the Palestinians for 120 years.

The one election they had, they choose to elect a group that said that Jews must be killed behind every rock and tree.

That wasn't hidden, that was overt, and that was their choice.

And now we are back to 80% of them supporting Hamas, with the majority saying that Hamas did not commit any atrocities on 10/7.

Of course they are going to suffer when their genocidal government launches an attack while openly stating that a) Israel has to be destroyed, no compromise is possible and b) our civilians are happy to be martyrs to that cause.

And once again, it is richly deserved. Every chance they've had for 100 years they've chosen this.

The one time their representatives, in this case Fatah, said 'we should stop trying to kill Jews' they voted for Hamas in order to ensure that the 'kill the Jews' was still in place.

And yes, if we choose Trump again and bad things happen to us we will richly deserve that fate.

Palestinians could have had peace a dozen times over. Every single time they choose to not have peace. No one wants to take the Palestinians in, because they have been raised on a steady diet of hatred for nearly a century now, generations of hatred, and they hate so much they lash out and kill people that don't help them in their hate. They've killed Kings and Prime Ministers, their allies killed the President of Egypt and one of their own killed someone who likely would have been President of the US. They've started wars that ravaged Jordan and Lebanon, which has nothing to do with their fight against Israel. They backed Saddam Hussein in taking over Kuwait.

How many different times do we need to see them act this way before we understand this is what they are?

They have no chance of destroying Israel, but they won't stop trying. What's the defintion of madness again?

If they ever put down the sword I'll be the first to welcome them back into the fold. But just because they are weak doesn't mean their actions aren't horrific. They just haven't been able to complete the genocide they want to inflict.

As Golda Meier said, 'Peace will come when the Palestinians love their children more than they hate us.' We certainly aren't there yet, are we.

Did Golda Meir (correct spelling) have anything to say about Israeli land-grabbing?

Ain't much point loving your kids if they have no place to live.

There are some accounts of Israel poisoning Palestinian lands under Meir, but these come from sources you would dismiss. Land grabs, though, are established fact.

Well, the Arabs kept launching wars to destroy Israel, and the Israelis kept winning, so when she was PM Israel controlled Gaza and the West Bank and the Palestinians lived there then. Then during her tenure they launched the Yom Kippur War in '73. Note that even when Egypt controlled Gaza the Palestinians were not in charge of Gaza. Both Jordan and Egypt wanted to take the partition lands for themselves - after all, the Palestinians rejected the Partition in the first place.

Sadat claimed victory even though the borders didn't change in '73, normalized relations with Israel in '77, and was killed during a victory parade over Israel in '81, because he made peace with Israel.

So, just to confirm you're fine with one side in this conflict ignoring international law because might makes right?

Good times.

The get back to you was to the other parts of your post.

You had made it clear you weren’t going to address your hypocrisy over completely ignoring half a million dead Tigray and instead just said we should care more about Africa.

“I believe I've already addressed it above, but I will agree that we (westerners generally) ought to be more motivated about what happens in Africa in particular.”

What exactly was I supposed to respond to there?

They have also effectively derailed discussions about conditioning aid to Israel. Remember when that was a thing ? How Schumer, Pelosi, Cooms pretty much whole Dem establishment was on record saying we should do it?

Following the World Central Kitchen fiasco there was a real moment for improving our policy towards this government. Instead we’re arguing about college kids.

One side? LOL. That's incredibly naive.

BOTH sides view this as an existential battle. I personally believe that having a single state in the world for the Jewish people is fine. And that constantly calling for the massacre of the descendants of the survivors of the Holocaust and then trying to act on that sentiment is going to get a pretty understandable response.

International law doesn't seem to be an impediment to either side in this.

It would be nice if these pro-Palestinian protests were at least acknowledging the continued suffering of innocent hostages in Gaza. But something tells me they're not.

You’re approaching the problem from the perspective that every problem is caused by the Israelis and the Palestinians can be held harmless.

It's easier to think in such binary terms ("Isreal" bad, Palestine good) for some people. For them, nuance is idealogical weakness.

I Think my biggest issue with the campus protests (and the pro-Palestinian side in general) is that the they seem to be blatantly anti-Israel as opposed to being against the actions of the Israeli government. There don’t seem to be many other ways to interpret “from the river to the sea," for example. I don’t really like the idea of religious ethnostates for anyone, but what the fuck do people think a "free" Palestine would be? The United Federation of Planets on Earth? I think the only real answer is a two state solution where both sides can do their own thing. Not ideal, but what else?

And even then, let's be honest... would a two state solution mean anything but an endless cold war between the parties? Israel is never going to stop feeling threatened by an independent Palestine, and Palestine is never going to want to stop trying to take back what they feel is theirs.

100% this. Hamas has the power to end this, but they won't.

I don't know how much I trust Bibi and his government to stop even in the event of a complete Hamas unconditional surrender, but...why would Hamas end this? Hamas is winning this war in way too many courts of public opinion, especially in the West (where Israel depends on support). 30000 plus Gazans dead? Not Hamas' problem!

Israel doesn't really rely that much on Western Support - the money we send them to buy our munitions isn't a major factor in their economy or their war plans. They absolutely can go it alone.

The problem with morons supporting them in the West is it helps them miscalculate the endgame - they think there is a chance to win. The West should be united against Muslim fundamentalism.

Alas our left has lost their mind just like the right has, and actively support people who would happily oppress them the first chance they got. But then, these are the same morons who supported the Soviet Union, and China, and say that the issue with Ukraine is 'nuanced'. LOL.

Complete fucking morons, who don't realize that you can't be moral if you are that fucking reprehensibly stupid.

I would say most of these protestors will be doing a Jane Fonda apology for later in life, but I really believe that, much like Trump voters, they will stick to they guns to the bitter end because for some reason it's become a fast worse than death to admit you were ever wrong about anything, ever.

Straight up.

Let’s not paint with too broad a brush here. Some dumb college kids backed by outside provocateurs doesn’t represent the left.

If we assume that Dems are a fair representation of ‘the left’ then 3/4ths support the police stepping in to restore campus safety. That’s only 3 points behind Rs.



https://pro.morningconsult.com/analysis/israel-palestine-hamas-war-colleges-polling-march-2024

Israel and Hamas appear closer to cease-fire as mediators try to wrap up deal, AP explains

https://apnews.com/video/israel-ham...l-agreements-66e9f4f5353a40a3b30be4c2eae097c5

The main thing that poll indicates to me is that there are a lot of stupid people out there. And I guess I just don't understand people's reluctance to condemn the actions of Hamas against Israel. I'm not saying I wouldn't do some nasty shit against an occupying force, but I would have to draw the line at purposefully causing civilian casualties, kidnapping innocent civilians, and raping them. That's just me, though.