2024 General Election Thread

Another thing I realise is that the German centrists (if you can call them that) also decided to collaborate with the Nazis on the grounds of "putting country before party". And we saw where that went.

If you were serious about this, you'd consider any politician who had anything to do with an "American Nazi Party" to be beyond the pale. Like you would with actual Nazis. Instead Democrats want to chase their voters instead of the Green ones. Says it all.

Let us not go into the same bullshit as the far right. Not every person who wants to be a republican is a trumpanzee. There is a solid majority of registered republicans that are, but there are the moderate republicans who still feel they are republicans despite Trump not being their guy. Kamala is not going after the Ted Cruz and MTG repugs, but there is place for a discussion with a Liz Cheney type. We are seeing a split where the moderates are pulling away from our way or destroy america by shutting down the government right.

This is the time to recognize those who do not march lock step with the Nazis. Those are the ones we can live with and those are the ones we need to recognize will be part of our community and not those who are willing to die and go to jail to fuck over immigrants, kill a trans child, or kill a mother by denying her healthcare because women who have sex are not people. Yes we need to do something different with Isreal, but the muslim world has to start cleaningh up their act because we cannot support religious fascism from any of the abrahamic faiths. We cannot do it with Isreali cultural hate, and we cannot do it with Islamic cultural hate either. That is also to say that repubs have to denounce repugs who want christian nationalism here in the US.

@Demiurge represents a problem where he does try to sound reasonable, but clearly he loves Muslims being killed and has a full on hate boner for them, and he also has issues against GLBT people. We do have to watch out for these people as participating in their overwhelming desire to continuously bomb Islamic countries brings us into the realm of supporting genocide of Islamic peoples.

This isn't Europe, dumb guy. Green voters are less than 2% of the population. And one of the two parties that has any chance to win the election is so far better than the other that ultimately they are just contrarian assholes. No wonder you like them.

Each vote you lift away from Trump is a chance to keep fascism from America, and no, Kinzinger and Cheney and Steele, and those of that like, aren't Nazis. They oppose Nazis. Not all Republicans are Nazis, but their leadership sure as fuck is. So trying to get people away from that is a valid goal - and if you reach even 5% of them, that's more than the total number of Greens.

This is particularly of note in the battleground states where the election will be decided. Wooing Green party extremists there would lose more votes than it would gain, easily.

Maybe, just maybe, American political strategists know more about how to win American elections then self-righteous deluded zealots from Ireland.

Republicans are Nazis. Kinzinger and Cheney and Steele are Republicans. But Kinzinger and Cheney and Steele are not Nazis!

The Green Party might hand the election to Trump. Also Green Party voters are irrelevant!

Look, they're interfering with democracy! We are too? Oh, but it's okay when we do it.

All over the place, chump.

Jesus Christ, you are feeble minded. I'll dumb it down so even the stupids like you can understand.

Republicans that went along with the Nazis that took over their party are functionally Nazis.

Republicans that opposed the Nazis that took over their party are not Nazis.

Does the stupid person understand basic shit yet?

It costs the Dems more votes to court the Greens because their demands directly hurt the people in the battleground states.

Dems are exasperated because the Dems are responsible for promoting virtually every sane environmental law in the US, while the Republicans actively dismantle them.

Which makes it pretty clear that the prime concern of the Greens isn't environmental policy - and some of their leadership has openly stated that they want the Dems to lose. That ensures worse environmental outcomes.

This isn't rocket science, Ricky.

You just can't see it without your socialist lens. Socialists are a non-factor in American politics.

And speaking of Nazis:

Democrats close field office in Tempe Arizona after multiple shootings at the building.

https://www.rawstory.com/tempe-arizona/

You can put this shit in Morse Code if you like, it will still be hypocritical nonsense. And you'll still be a fanatical nationalist rather than the moderate you're posing as.

I am not so reductive as to regard Republicans as Nazis. You made that claim, while simultaneously wanting to suck up to their representatives. But where Nazis are concerned, if there’s a Nazi at the table and 10 other people sitting there talking to him, you've got a table with 11 Nazis.

Americans, particularly Democrats (though not you, you genocidal freak) are in line with the Greens on the single issue that is at the heart of this - so the idea that a pivot will cost votes is wrong.
The reality is that "winning elections" and "preserving democracy" are not the only goals of the Democratic Party. If they were then Trump would be in jail and they wouldn't be struggling to beat such an obvious fuckup for the third time in a row. But their constituency is their donors and they are constrained in their policy choices by that.

I hope they don't. I hope that Kamala Harris changes course and then wins the election. But if they decide that continuing to commit genocide is more important than defeating Trump, then that will be on them.

I would have to agree that you are probably going to catch more republicans fleeing from trump than lefties who are going to go green with kamala on the ticket. Let us remember this is a historic first to have a female president so most progressives are going to go with the black woman. They are not running the old white dude anymore. The only people left voting for the green party are the extremists who were going to accept no less than Bernie or some black liberal extreme progressive.

You are alsread pushing away the stealth sexist and racist dems and repugs. Soften the blow to the republicans who have been forced into the independent area and there are so many more in the moderate area than extreme lefties to catch.

It is the exact right thing to be doing. The people who are voting on the palestine issue are really going to find any reason to not vote establishment anyway. They really want to vote green anyway, and in all honesty they are pushing their vote as potentially democrat for influence when it really isn't.

I'm not the one smiling because the Nazis might come to power, Ricky. That was you, just a few posts back in this thread. Of course you are backtracking now, but we all saw that smilie next to that post, clearly happy Harris was in danger of losing. You really are a complete shitstain of a human being.

I'm not the one stating I want the fascists to win, Ricky. That was one of the leaders of your beloved Green party.

The reason Trump isn't in jail is those same fascist that he appointed to the Supreme Court and who amazingly keeps getting all of his cases in Florida. The GOP refused to strip him of his right to run in the election when given the chance.

Trying to get people to be deprogrammed from the propaganda and support the well being of democracy and civil rights for their countrymen is a laudable goal, no matter how much it pisses you off that the Dems aren't genuflecting to the left.

Once again, there aren't very many leftists in this country. 6% of them self-identify as 'progressive', with 66% of those already voting Dem.

Because they aren't willing to watch it all burn down out of spite, like you fucking morons.

I'm not backtracking. It's great. Harris being in danger of losing is the only way that she changes the policy. You deride things such as "sternly worded letters" (actually documentation of the genocide you support) because they have no effect. And so, here we are. This is leverage. Enjoy!

Oh, are we back to your good buddies in Hamas and Hezbollah now?

I'm unaware of any policy change.

Enjoy Muslims being rounded up in camps. Because that's the end result of your 'leverage.'

As Donny said, they won't worry about whether they are citizens are not. And he plans on making it 'bloody.'

Enjoy!

Obama said the same thing. He only managed to get one to do it, and that guy didn’t stick around long. I seriously doubt that any Republican would accept Harris’ offer.

Roughly 50% of American voters (people who actually show up to vote, not the ones who can’t be bothered to show up despite being eligible) are fine with this




If Harris were to make a dramatic shift in current US immigration policy, what do you think would happen? Keep in mind that the bulk of the population who supports Trump isn’t merely heavily armed, they’re looking for an excuse to commit murder.

You keep saying that Harris should make a dramatic shift (at least by American standards) in US policy. That’s a sure path to defeat. Because nobody pushing for dramatic change has ever made it far in American politics.

This moment in American history became inevitable once Nixon adopted his “Southern Strategy” almost 60 years ago. Perhaps, if the people who claimed that the Democrats were no better than the Republicans had put as much effort into pressing for election reform (ditching the EC, limiting the amount of money that could be spent in campaigns, and so on) while still voting for Democrats, it could have been avoided. But they didn’t. They “rejected the binary choice” and opted to be ignored by the American political system.

It is really sad to see this sort of anti-imigrant rhetoric resonating in american Italian, Irish, Latino, and Asian communities so well. A large number of my Italian relatives are huge into the anti-immigrant attitude despite being so proud of my great grandfather coming over through ellis Island back in the 1930s. I remember them being so proud of the fact they endured the hate for italians and became citizens and part of the american community. They lived crampoed in houses, took work no white american would do, and spoke another language that they got ridiculed for.

Now they are card carrying trumpanzees posting on facebook about criminal immigrant gangs just like my great grandfather, who they knew in life, was treated. It is fucking disgusting. My own grandfather who watched his father be lied about and demonized took to doing the same fucking thing once he felt he was on the inside.

I picked a side and thought that since my family was mostly hard working people who built a better life and built a community in an area where white people (Italians were not white back in the day) did not want to live and eventually became part of the affluent white community, other immigrants were mostly good people who wanted to be a part of the community that accepted everyone who wanted to abide by the law and look out for each other and make a decent community to thrive in for all types. Now I am the asshole who a lot of my family hates because I do not hate immigrants.

OK, whatever. I chose that path because of my experience with other humans and seeing we all love and hurt the same. The p[eople who think differently can go fuck themselves.

I don't think that Harris needs to make a dramatic shift. There's a lot I and people like me are willing to tolerate. (I advocated voting for Biden and Clinton in the last two elections.) Just stop the genocide and sell it however she wants. That's not a maximal demand.

You really don’t get American politics at all. You know why so many Americans (regardless of party) are cheering on Israel? And why they want the Palestinians wiped out? Because they genuinely believe it’ll bring Jesus back. For all the hucksters on TV selling bullshit stories about how we’re in “the End Times,” there’s millions of Americans who fervently believe it. So much so that they pour billions into the coffers of those hucksters every year.

There’s no way for Harris to sell slapping Israel down and win the election. None. Even hinting at it risks votes. AIPAC is a strong political force in America and they certainly won’t hesitate to put as much money as they can into wrecking Harris’ campaign.

Now add in that there’s a large group of easily manipulated yokels who are certain that Jebus is gonna come back any minute now and they are already going to great lengths to bring about the Rapture, and shit gets dicey.

The question is, will YOU be Left Behind?

You can fall back on the "you just don't get it" trope if you like, but I'm very aware of the role of both millenialism and AIPAC. Those groups are precisely why pressure needs to be brought to bear in the first place. Throwing up your hands and voting for genocide is not an acceptable moral position to me, and if that is the best option things are already irretrievably fucked. To paraphrase someone whose name I can't remember, it means that you are the darkness that you believe that you are fighting.

@Demiurge, you need to draw a Venn diagram.

Nobody is voting "for" genocide.
You might not like the sound of this, but most Americans don't give two fuck's about Israel. Not substantively, at least.
They care in the abstract, but when pressed for details it doesn't go much farther than "We support the people who were attacked on Oct. 7, in the same way we were on 9/11."
And guess what? That's not a whole lot different from anyone else in any other country.
So, no, I don't want Harris to shift policies to appease people who will vote against their own interests regardless. These are the same people who cheer the "protestors" throwing paint on Picassos.
The fact is, I'd rather watch the Palestinians and the Israelis wipe each other out than put my own country's well- being at risk. There's your "realpolitik". Trump will be a disaster for the United States, and anyone voting for someone like Jill Stein to make an asinine point can get fucked.

@RickDeckard , you disagree, but it's true. I said before, anyone not voting for Harris because she isn't pro-Palestinian enough is an idiot. Because guess what? It's either vote for Harris, or vote for the guy who will happily sell Israel the bombs to finish leveling Gaza.
When I said these people are voting against their own interests, I meant it.

The idea that a Harris loss would cause the Dem party to change position on Palestine, something that is consistently ranked at the bottom of issues people care about, and not inflation/economy/prices some version of which is always the top issue and usually ~3/5 top issues is hilarious.

If Harris loses the message Dems will receive is that inflation is all that matters. Doesn’t matter if real wages rise for 80% of the population. It is better to under stimulate in a crisis than risk over stimulating. That persistent lower growth and higher unemployment are less damaging than even temporary moderate inflation. That big investments in the people and economy take too long to impact folks’ perceptions.

That’s the lesson a loss in Nov will teach the party.

It's almost like you're trying to misunderstand.

What would be the point in getting the Democrats to shift policy after they'd lost the election? Disagree with it all you like, but the goal is to try to make it happen before the election.

That is not Jill Stein's goal.

Obviously. She's got the long-term fortunes of her own party to worry about. But she's a means to that end.

She's not concerned with the long-term fortunes of her own party, either.

No one cares about the Green Party outside of a few fringe loons and foreign socialists, apparently. Stein is a Russian asset. I guess to some that's a positive attribute.

You know, I was very interested in the recent UK election and probably posted a few times about them. However, I NEVER posted pontificating, finger-wagging, pompous, know it all stuff about it, while gleefully lecturing the Brits about their shortcomings.
This kind of shit is one of the reasons why, despite an Irish surname, I don't have any romantic attachment to whatever portion of my ancestry might be Irish.

Ironically, i can actually trace my Irish ancestry roots back to a whopping three generations ago. But my wife still gets annoyed when I joke about Irish drinking whiskey for breakfast.