The irrational fears of Americans of "Socialism"

Copied from the Jehova's genocides Thread:

There are forms of government which have implemented some elements of "communism", and these countries prosper, if you like it or not... Look at the scandinavian countries, for example. When I'm painting with the same broad brush like you did in your post, these countries are socialist hellholes. But they offer excellent quality of life for their citizens. They are on top of every list. Education, average income, public health...

I think that many Americans go nuts when they hear the term "socialism" is because most of them were educated during the Cold War, were the socialists were the enemy. Socialism = Warsaw Pact = evil.

However, one must notice that many countries have implemented moderate socialist ideas in their societies and are very successful. See above. There are mild, rational forms of socialism which are compatible with capitalism.

But what I see is that countries with socialist (I'd call it social-democrat) parts in their political systems need a high work ethic of their population. These systems would never work when a big part of the population just leans back and sucks at the tits of the state. The negative example in this case is Greece. The Greek perverted socialist ideas and deliver ammunition for all the socialism-critics out there. And rightly so! I think that only "ripe" countries can implement "socialist" ideas in their political systems and still prosper. The south European countries don't seem to have that maturity.

"Socialism," like "liberal," has become a favored catchall for those who have no clue what it means and are too lazy, ignorant or frightened to find out.

Another dumb white middle class hatred.


Look, the soviet union sucked, but this is what I honestly believe about the whole "cold war", situation.
I don't think the US government, or the upper 1% industrialist swine actually gave a FUCK about "liberty", or any of the shit that was in the propaganda that was bludgeoned into the middle-class/working poor of the Eisenhower generation.

If there had been a BUCK to be made off of full-bore soviet communism, we would have had it.

It was all rich assholes protecting their power, simple as that.

And given all the commie fear was from that place of nasty dishonesty, I don't see any real "good guys", at least not in any power structure.

And given all the "socialism!", gut-reaction today comes from that era of propagandized brainwashing bullshit, I just roll my eyes at it.

A big ball of dumb, unthinking, nothing.

I'm for ideas that work.
Whatever makes a word where there's no literal boot on your neck, no goose-stepping down the street, no doors being kicked down, no ovens, then it's good.

I don't much care what label the part we put into the engine has on it.

But, see, can't solve problems that way with gut-reacted indoctrination like that.

So, while that attitude hangs on, it's never going to be an honest good faith debate, so, s'why I don't take it very seriously anymore.

Fuck it.

There's the problem right there. There's too many folks here who feel they are entitled to money from the government without working for it. Blame that on the first "socialists" in the 60s.
Right now there we are teetering on the side with too many getting and not enough working. And we have too many IN government that encourage the thinking that one is entitled to money without work.

It's a lot more deep rooted than that, and goes back to our colonial heritage of self-reliance and individualism.

Unfortunately, things have become over-simplified and our political discourse has become little more than buzzwords and bullshit. Not that it was ever anything more dignified, but people used to have better things to occupy their time and less chance to be told what to think through their television.

Hearst would be proud.

Hey, I tried to phrase to OP in a rational manner. Do not turn this thread into a shit flinging contest! Ok, this is WF...

My point is: Mature societies with populations which are ready to work hard can afford good social security systems and good health care from which the whole population profits and which increases quality of life for every citizen. Because everybody could get ill one day or lose his job.

One advantage of societies with moderate "socialist" elements is that when you're getting unemployed, you are helped to find a new job as fast as possible. The state won't let you starve, but it won't let you sit on your lazy ass forever. I think it needs a good mixture of help and pressure. Here in Switzerland, you won't get much unemployment pay if you do not actively search for a new job. You have to prove that you are job-hunting. But there are guys who help you to find a job, which is not very easy even for people who have a good education nowadays.

Name them.

Well, part of it is that people don't really care about one another, just themselves.

I mean, the best argument that you can make for social programs and so forth is that it makes the aggregate stronger, and that a rising tide lifts all boats.

That's not a mark against conservatism or conservatism, just a general observation about people.

Well, yeah, but that makes too much sense.
If your population starves, who's going to run the fucking machines?
But...we got bitten on the neck with the "better dead than red!!", shit, and discourse went out the window.

And are stupid, because rapacious greed is self destructive in the end.

Like I said, if the population starves, who runs the machines?

And then where will the rich get their little tins of caviar?

And the problems from those points are pretty much what we have today.

I mean, what if I told you society could get rocket packs and hot space alien women, but you personally had to toil in the rocket fuel mines for life while everyone enjoyed the benefits of society?

That's a raw deal.

Point taken but there was a labour movement in the late 1800s and early 1900s as strong as anywhere else in the world. In other countries, that labour movement ended up taking political power (or at least a slice of it). It didn't really happen in the US.

I think part of the reason is the US didn't suffer in the world wars the way Europe did. The wars radicalised people in Europe and the British Labour Party had huge upswings following both wars.

Well, why rock the boat?

Considering we had our cake and ate it too in the 20th Century, I can't really say we were wrong about our course.

@Diacanu: Of course, such a system can only work when there is at least a minimal ammount of social solidarity. Don't you have this in your country? Or is the term "solidarity" already too "socialist" for some people?

The only stabs at "solidarity", I ever see, is this faux-nationalism that gets trotted out when the pols want a war, or the bible shit.

You paint a horrible picture of your country. I don't know if your position has any anchoring in reality. Are things really so bad, or are you exaggerating because you are such a frustrated pessimist? I need more input from other posters. I do not trust your opinion, to be honest! I've always been thinking that you Americans are one nation under God... Perhaps I should spend a few months in Texas and see what's the real deal!

He's a malcontent, but then again, we all are.

I know I am.

Oh, my dear, if you're coming to the States, do NOT start with Texas.

That's precisely the flaw in your attacks on capitalism. Those who provide capital can't afford to let those who provide labor starve. Which is why they don't.

Finally, a right-leaning person posting in this thread! I think that every society with a social security system has to deal with leeches. But as an optimist, I hope that these people are a minority. And as I said, these people must be helped to get back in the economic process. Help them, but set up enough pressure so that they cannot stay parasites forever and be happy with it.

It's quite hard to find work around here. To make an application has become an almost scientific matter. You make one mistake (perhaps a harmless spelling error in your application paper, or even using a slightly inappropriate term, etc..), and you are fucked. One has to read books just to know what it takes to write acceptable application papers. It's absurd.

Garamet check the numbers out.

And then look at every time someone tries to reform Welfare and make work a part of the system and see how loud the ACLU screams at how folks are "entitled" to that check without strings.

And then get back to me.


And don't tell ME to provide you links.

You are a gifted writer; you have to research to write a good book.

Do some research on your own for once.

Go to your local welfare department and ask to see their records.

Garamet is just going to ignore that, like always.

I'll go the other way and say that because so many of you fucknuts are standing on your soapbox screaming about these irrational fears when it comes to 'communism' and 'socialism'.....you can't even see that your own government is slowly but surely taking away civil liberties and basic freedoms one by one.

And yet you scream, and whine, and bitch.

Hell, all dickhead does is bitch all day. Bitch and whine. From his mom's basement.

That is just it though. Socialism kills the work ethic because there is no individual gain for hard work, everything is for the collective good and the ability for the individual to gain wealth off of his work and Ideas is crushed. If person X works hard and person Y does not, but at the end of the day, they both get the same compensation, then what is person X's motivation?

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I realize that.

But my point still stands. I don't think the US is anywhere near being a socialist country. But I do think that basic freedoms and civil liberties are being taken away, and people just ignore it because they're so busy on their own soapbox bitching about irrational fears and other stupidity.

The political stupidity in the US goes both ways.