Don't fly Malaysia Airlines!

Getting away from the war crime apologism from various people...

According to the Ukranians, 3 missile launch systems of the type used were smuggled from Russia last week, and required military specialists to operate them. Which if true ties the atrocity directly to the Russian state.

Well said Rick.

Which little will get done about unless Europe is deadly serious. And that means a solid threat of an EU wide ban on Russians and Russian goods, Putin would have little option but to negotiate or face his supporters switching to another option.

It would cost the EU greatly, and it'd mean the Germans and Italians having to make new energy arrangements, and the UK to take a hit with Russian commercial activity in London, but Russia could not survive long, and they've learned the Chinese will not tolerate any of their shit after finally agreeing an energy deal that is more to the benefit of the Chinese.

Interesting tidbit I read elsewhere on the t'interwebz.

Apparently, back in the Falklands war, the UK had cordially informed Buenos Aires that any Argie military aircraft approaching a British vessel would shortly find itself with an exploding missile inserted into it.

The Task Force, heading to retake the Falklands, found something making a beeline towards them from South America, and given the Argies had been using 707's to recon the Task Force, immediately began preparation to fire upon it.

Luckily the Commander of the Task Force spotted the flight wasn't just heading towards the Task Force, but was also on the line between Rio and Durban, and set out a harrier to recon, otherwise we'd have shot down a Brazilian passenger jet.

The West? Well don't look toward America. We're waiting for Russia to get the incriminating evidence from the crash-site (already in progress BTW) so we can drag our feet until there is no evidence. During the feet dragging, we will offer offer vague and meaningless threats to "take some kind of action."
When no evidence turns up that Russia had anything to do with it. If anybody dares question why nothing concrete is being done, Hillary Clinton will get frustrated and say "What difference at this point does it make?"
She did it to her own countrymen, so she has no qualms about dismissing cries for justice from foreigners.
So what does everyone think, do I have it about right?

"would shortly find itself with an exploding missile inserted into it."

That's what SHE SAID!
Okay, back to your regularly scheduled programming.

@oldfella1962:

I have no doubt there will be all manner of anguished hysteria from the usual suspects regardless of any US response. But here's the question: what should a response look like?

Assume for a moment that the Russians were intentionally behind this and we can prove it. Then what?

Of course, more likely, we at most get evidence that the missile may have once belonged to Russia and somehow found its way to rebel hands. Under this scenario, do we respond the same way as whatever the answer is to the above? Something less? Who is the target of our response?

It's easy to ask "why won't the US do something?" It's much harder to make a realistic concrete proposal for action. Civilian airliners have been shot down five or six times that I can recall, and I don't believe there was ever any kind of punishment applied. What did we do when the Soviets, North Koreans, or Americans accidentally shot down civilian planes in past conflicts?

The response can only ever be diplomatic.

The Russians weren't intentionally behind this. They supplied the missile and probably the manpower to fire the missile but Putin is smart enough to know that you don't shoot down civilian airliners. He's probably pissed off but thanking God that Europe is weak and Obama is weak. So he's going to continue to play the tough guy.

The reality is that his people and the pro-Russian separatists fucked up. They earlier in the week had shot down a Ukrainian An-26 cargo plane. They thought they were shooting down another one which is why after the plane was hit they were bragging about it until they found out it was a civilian airliner.

I imagine the seperatists who brought down the plane were dead within hours, and the rocket system was thrown in that big hole that was just seen in Siberia.

Apparently there are pictures and video of the BUK system being shipped back to Russia on the back of a truck and it's missing two missiles.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...sile-launcher-being-smuggled-into-Russia.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lls-claim-PROVES-Russia-shot-Flight-MH17.html

On its way to the hole, no doubt.

Rebel Leader: Malaysia Plane Filled with Already Dead Bodies

MOSCOW (AP) — A top pro-Russia rebel commander in eastern Ukraine has given a bizarre version of events surrounding the Malaysian jetliner crash — suggesting many of the victims may have died days before the plane took off.

The pro-rebel website Russkaya Vesna on Friday quoted Igor Girkin as saying he was told by people at the crash site that "a significant number of the bodies weren't fresh," adding that he was told they were drained of blood and reeked of decomposition.

. . . .
----------------


These rebels really are lousy at cover-up.

You have to wonder what they're putting in their vodka.

Probably the blood that was drained from the bodies.

"A significant number of the bodies weren't fresh." See pic!
Hmm.........maybe somehow this got lost in the translation.
Anyway, yesterday they claimed that many on board were spies.

So let's piece all this together:
1. AIDS scientists/experts
2. Spies
3. Dead

The jet was a botched suicide mission. The passengers were indeed AIDS experts because they were given AIDS as a death sentence because as rebel separatist spies who were just too good at their jobs, they "knew too much." But years of guilt over betraying Mother Russia drove them to stage an attack on the separatists...who fired in self defense. Some bodies were already dead because they were in the advanced stages of AIDS and a long layover the day prior weakened their fragile bodies with fatal results.

They're figuring that no one in the west wants a new Cold War. The West Europeans want to buy cheap natural gas and are in no mood to suffer. Obama doesn't want to go down as the president who ended his term with a renewed Cold War (or anything else).

Thus, even the most half assed claim will be seized on as a need to "investigate more" to "get at the truth". Investigated and studied long enough for the public to forget being outraged.

Sounds like a bad ripoff of A Scandal in Belgravia.

An accident of mistaken identity does not a war crime make.

Even if the operators of the missile battery were sent to The Hague, if they could demonstrate that they believed they were engaging a Ukrainian military aircraft, they would be acquitted.

The Ukrainians were firing artillery into Donetsk, shelling the hell out of it. They also dropped bombs from planes. Have you not seen the video of a child being pulled from the rubble? The DPR people were furious. Another plane comes into their airspace and they mistake it for a Ukraine Air Force transport. They've already knocked down two or three Ukrainian planes that week so they're feeling pretty confident. They blow it away and it turns out to be MH17.

"Oops" times a million.

They knew for a fact that they didn't have the equipment to distinguish between a passenger plane and a military aircraft, yet they fired anyway.

What they did was no different than placing a land mine field and not marking it or cleaning it up after it's served its purpose. They essentially mined the air, unmarked. That is, in fact, a war crime.

Because the parody title doesn't actually merit a thread:

"Don't fry Maraysia Eh-rines."

"I have had it with these motherfuckin' dead bodies on this motherfuckin' plane!"

I was referring to the digression that had arisen regarding Iraq, but this is certainly one too.

You appear to be of the view that because the Ukrainian side contains undesirable elements that the pro-Russian side can do no wrong.

To be fair, they wouldn't have expected any civilian jets to be flying over the area. If it wasn't for financial pressures on Malaysian Airlines they'd have avoided it too, and I suspect the EU may ban them from operating in its airspace for flying through what is effectively a war zone.

What happened was a horrible accident, with Russia, the Ukrainian separatists and Malaysian Airlines all culpable for those deaths.

The aftermath - the finger-pointing, body-removal, the blocking of access, the evidence tampering and blame deflection, that sits squarely on Russia and the separatists though and is pretty much the most blatant admission of guilt.

If this shootdown is a war crime then the shootdown of Iran Air 655 was also a war crime. YOU CAN'T HAVE YOUR CAKE AND EAT IT.

I guess the US gov't should send some guys into the Donetsk region to try and find those who fired this missile, so that they can suitably reward them with medals, as they did with the crew of the Vincennes.

I don't think Russia can do no wrong, and every side has a piece of this shit sandwich, however, Kiev is undoubtedly the more unjust and outrageous party in this conflict.

The people of east Ukraine had to sit and watch the democratically elected government, that they had overwhelmingly voted for, being deposed by a western mob and it's president forced to flee the country. And the regime elevated to replace said gov't was riddled with neo-nazis with a hatred of ethnic Russians (which most east Ukrainians are). The very first new law they attempted to pass after taking power was a law to ban the Russian language!

Faced with such provocation it is unsurprising a rebellion would spontaneously begin. No spark or kickstart from Russia is required. I'm not disputing that once it got going the Russians have aided the rebels, but it is very much local in origin, not something stirred up from the outside by Russia.

Putin, for his part, got what he wanted with the Crimea annexation. He got Sevastopol and the other bases. He has no interest in inheriting the rest of Ukraine, which would be a monstrous economic burden on Russia. But if ethnic Russians in the east, facing a hostile Kiev junta full of legit fascists, are going to take up arms and resist the rule of said junta, Putin will by all means aid them with arms and equipment. And there's nothing particularly wrong with that.

MH17 was a tragedy, but it was just an accident. A bad call in the fog of war. As was Iran Air 655. It doesn't automatically make the DPR terrorists, nor does it delegitimise them as an entity or make Russian "evil" for rendering aid unto them.

Well, shit, what's the point of having cake, then? Fuck cake, then! Nothing but a rotten fuckin' tease to have cake if you can't eat it!

I've made no attempt to. Nor am I disputing how dreadful it is that Ukraine has fascists in power or that those fascists are being supported by the west. They simply aren't to blame here and you need to stop trying to concoct reasons to pretend that they are.